Productize ‘Till It Hurts, Customize ‘Till It Works

[00:00:00.16 --> 00:00:04.64] people used to write um software for a

[00:00:02.88 --> 00:00:07.56] calculator simple calculator now we

[00:00:04.64 --> 00:00:12.44] write uh software for uh spreadsheets

[00:00:07.56 --> 00:00:15.60] and complex uh uh calculations and uh

[00:00:12.44 --> 00:00:16.96] whatever you know data data analysis

[00:00:15.60 --> 00:00:18.24] blah blah blah so it's the same thing

[00:00:16.96 --> 00:00:20.68] just now we write software to make

[00:00:18.24 --> 00:00:22.56] software yeah exactly and the main

[00:00:20.68 --> 00:00:24.64] reason we do it is that so that when the

[00:00:22.56 --> 00:00:27.16] customer asks us to change the font to

[00:00:24.64 --> 00:00:29.20] Hela we don't have to do it ourselves I

[00:00:27.16 --> 00:00:31.28] think that's where it boils down to they

[00:00:29.20 --> 00:00:33.48] like ah change on your own and stay away

[00:00:31.28 --> 00:00:33.48] from

[00:00:34.16 --> 00:00:44.20] [Music]

[00:00:39.72 --> 00:00:47.80] it hello everyone welcome to episode

[00:00:44.20 --> 00:00:50.76] three we're going to talk about uh the

[00:00:47.80 --> 00:00:53.60] title's pretty interesting today we have

[00:00:50.76 --> 00:00:56.28] uh productized till it hurts customized

[00:00:53.60 --> 00:00:58.32] till it works with Mariana and L welcome

[00:00:56.28 --> 00:01:00.40] back guys how's it going

[00:00:58.32 --> 00:01:05.04] hello how you feeling about episode

[00:01:00.40 --> 00:01:07.92] three let's start there well

[00:01:05.04 --> 00:01:11.84] excited all right excit to talk about

[00:01:07.92 --> 00:01:14.88] how products versus project management

[00:01:11.84 --> 00:01:17.88] roles switch between each

[00:01:14.88 --> 00:01:20.84] other when thinking about client side or

[00:01:17.88 --> 00:01:22.08] product SES let's do it so uh we're

[00:01:20.84 --> 00:01:24.84] going to try to hit a thousand episodes

[00:01:22.08 --> 00:01:27.44] then we'll be famous but if we get to

[00:01:24.84 --> 00:01:30.16] 999 we're not famous nobody be upset

[00:01:27.44 --> 00:01:32.24] it's a journey let's do this okay So

[00:01:30.16 --> 00:01:36.12] today we're going to talk about uh so

[00:01:32.24 --> 00:01:38.36] our title is producti till it hurts

[00:01:36.12 --> 00:01:40.28] which just means that if you're building

[00:01:38.36 --> 00:01:43.20] web products digital products SAS

[00:01:40.28 --> 00:01:44.84] products you are you want to productize

[00:01:43.20 --> 00:01:46.64] as much as possible right because you

[00:01:44.84 --> 00:01:48.00] set out to build a product maybe you

[00:01:46.64 --> 00:01:51.48] want to get to the world maybe you want

[00:01:48.00 --> 00:01:54.08] to go to thousands of people to use it

[00:01:51.48 --> 00:01:55.92] but then inevitably you're going to

[00:01:54.08 --> 00:01:56.64] start making money which is hopefully a

[00:01:55.92 --> 00:01:58.88] good

[00:01:56.64 --> 00:01:59.80] thing and you're going to be so excited

[00:01:58.88 --> 00:02:01.16] you're going get that first contract

[00:01:59.80 --> 00:02:02.80] contct that second contract and they're

[00:02:01.16 --> 00:02:05.36] going to be like H can you give us a

[00:02:02.80 --> 00:02:07.48] report that does this you're going to be

[00:02:05.36 --> 00:02:09.80] like uh

[00:02:07.48 --> 00:02:11.12] okay you're going to make it happen and

[00:02:09.80 --> 00:02:13.68] you'll be like oh maybe all of my

[00:02:11.12 --> 00:02:15.48] customers will use it then the second

[00:02:13.68 --> 00:02:17.04] week you're going to get another request

[00:02:15.48 --> 00:02:18.52] that says hey can I get an email when

[00:02:17.04 --> 00:02:20.92] this

[00:02:18.52 --> 00:02:23.72] happens and you're going to be like oh

[00:02:20.92 --> 00:02:26.20] maybe T customers can use this one and

[00:02:23.72 --> 00:02:28.32] then the third one is going to be hey

[00:02:26.20 --> 00:02:30.88] can I flicker the lights whenever a new

[00:02:28.32 --> 00:02:34.16] user signs up and you're going to be

[00:02:30.88 --> 00:02:36.40] like f my life why did I get into this

[00:02:34.16 --> 00:02:39.72] I'm servicing one client they're paying

[00:02:36.40 --> 00:02:42.12] me $300 a month and I'm dedicating

[00:02:39.72 --> 00:02:46.00] thousands of dollars in terms of you

[00:02:42.12 --> 00:02:48.96] know uh team effort work planning so we

[00:02:46.00 --> 00:02:51.52] can serve this one lousy

[00:02:48.96 --> 00:02:53.96] client so you start thinking did I screw

[00:02:51.52 --> 00:02:56.36] up my pricing or is this just how life

[00:02:53.96 --> 00:02:57.88] is where people want want whatever they

[00:02:56.36 --> 00:03:00.20] can

[00:02:57.88 --> 00:03:02.16] have um and then you start getting into

[00:03:00.20 --> 00:03:03.52] the next part of the cycle and I'll I'll

[00:03:02.16 --> 00:03:04.48] we've gone through this a lot so we're

[00:03:03.52 --> 00:03:07.28] going to talk about a lot of these

[00:03:04.48 --> 00:03:09.36] example where you say customize till it

[00:03:07.28 --> 00:03:11.20] works but then the question is how do

[00:03:09.36 --> 00:03:14.52] you customize it in a way that can work

[00:03:11.20 --> 00:03:15.56] for your first 50 100 200 300 customers

[00:03:14.52 --> 00:03:17.16] so this actually a problem that we're

[00:03:15.56 --> 00:03:19.92] facing so I love I love that we're going

[00:03:17.16 --> 00:03:21.92] to talk about it uh for your viewers for

[00:03:19.92 --> 00:03:24.12] the viewers we have not really rehearsed

[00:03:21.92 --> 00:03:25.64] this we're just kind of winging it and

[00:03:24.12 --> 00:03:28.08] that's the plan that's the goal we want

[00:03:25.64 --> 00:03:30.28] to wing it so that we can get our minds

[00:03:28.08 --> 00:03:32.32] going as to how

[00:03:30.28 --> 00:03:33.92] uh how this happens and we're going to

[00:03:32.32 --> 00:03:37.12] use a few examples of some real world

[00:03:33.92 --> 00:03:38.84] stuff clients that we've uh uh products

[00:03:37.12 --> 00:03:41.52] we've built and clients that we're

[00:03:38.84 --> 00:03:44.68] servicing and go from there so I guess

[00:03:41.52 --> 00:03:46.52] let's start out with uh I would say the

[00:03:44.68 --> 00:03:48.84] first step is to say like what is a

[00:03:46.52 --> 00:03:53.12] productized offering so what does that

[00:03:48.84 --> 00:03:55.00] mean does that mean uh I call up my

[00:03:53.12 --> 00:03:57.32] local coffee shop and I say I'm going to

[00:03:55.00 --> 00:03:59.72] build you an online ordering service or

[00:03:57.32 --> 00:04:01.32] does it mean I build what comes first

[00:03:59.72 --> 00:04:03.56] the product or the customer or do they

[00:04:01.32 --> 00:04:06.76] come hand in

[00:04:03.56 --> 00:04:09.72] hand uh I'd say it should go Hand by

[00:04:06.76 --> 00:04:11.52] hand because you cannot create just like

[00:04:09.72 --> 00:04:14.88] we discussed in the previous episode of

[00:04:11.52 --> 00:04:17.88] MVP development and choosing an idea to

[00:04:14.88 --> 00:04:20.92] be built you need to have at least some

[00:04:17.88 --> 00:04:23.12] customer data a customer problem that

[00:04:20.92 --> 00:04:27.96] they're that you're trying to solve

[00:04:23.12 --> 00:04:29.40] based on which you'll be uh thinking of

[00:04:27.96 --> 00:04:30.60] uh the features of the product and

[00:04:29.40 --> 00:04:33.56] everything

[00:04:30.60 --> 00:04:37.80] but you don't need to take into account

[00:04:33.56 --> 00:04:41.00] every single wish or bucket list item a

[00:04:37.80 --> 00:04:43.88] customer suggests that they have wished

[00:04:41.00 --> 00:04:45.80] all their life to have within your app

[00:04:43.88 --> 00:04:48.64] because maybe that's like super

[00:04:45.80 --> 00:04:52.80] different from your uh initial product

[00:04:48.64 --> 00:04:57.28] offering so I would say it's not one or

[00:04:52.80 --> 00:05:00.36] the other comes first but rather both

[00:04:57.28 --> 00:05:03.60] come comeing at the same time yeah side

[00:05:00.36 --> 00:05:07.56] by side but then you as a product owner

[00:05:03.60 --> 00:05:10.36] product manager or the uh Team lead

[00:05:07.56 --> 00:05:12.76] decide on how to move forward with each

[00:05:10.36 --> 00:05:15.60] and every uh

[00:05:12.76 --> 00:05:18.72] customer inquiry kind

[00:05:15.60 --> 00:05:20.04] of interesting so so you would basically

[00:05:18.72 --> 00:05:22.24] ran let's say we're starting a product

[00:05:20.04 --> 00:05:24.88] today selling uh

[00:05:22.24 --> 00:05:26.64] microphones we're going to go out to

[00:05:24.88 --> 00:05:28.60] talk a bunch with a bunch of podcasters

[00:05:26.64 --> 00:05:31.60] and see what are your needs like do you

[00:05:28.60 --> 00:05:32.92] need a physical mute button do you need

[00:05:31.60 --> 00:05:35.08] like a gain

[00:05:32.92 --> 00:05:37.20] adjustment or maybe we'd research what's

[00:05:35.08 --> 00:05:39.52] out there in the market

[00:05:37.20 --> 00:05:41.52] right okay and we do that in parallel as

[00:05:39.52 --> 00:05:45.64] we develop the

[00:05:41.52 --> 00:05:48.52] product uh I would say you do that

[00:05:45.64 --> 00:05:51.60] first okay and then based on that build

[00:05:48.52 --> 00:05:54.08] a product with your own Vision as well

[00:05:51.60 --> 00:05:58.04] like a little bit of sprinkle of your

[00:05:54.08 --> 00:06:01.68] own ideas and your own yeah goals as

[00:05:58.04 --> 00:06:04.68] well own road map IDE ideas uh and then

[00:06:01.68 --> 00:06:06.80] have the constant kind of the

[00:06:04.68 --> 00:06:12.28] reassurance of the market to make sure

[00:06:06.80 --> 00:06:14.60] that your product is not very out of uh

[00:06:12.28 --> 00:06:16.60] the needs because like in the end you're

[00:06:14.60 --> 00:06:18.80] going to get money only by selling the

[00:06:16.60 --> 00:06:19.92] product itself because like you cannot

[00:06:18.80 --> 00:06:22.72] just hope

[00:06:19.92 --> 00:06:24.60] that it will sell by itself just because

[00:06:22.72 --> 00:06:26.96] you thought it was a great idea but

[00:06:24.60 --> 00:06:29.96] rather have constant reassurance

[00:06:26.96 --> 00:06:31.08] constant customer feedback uh but in

[00:06:29.96 --> 00:06:35.36] this

[00:06:31.08 --> 00:06:37.52] case um the customer ideas should not

[00:06:35.36 --> 00:06:41.16] always be taken into

[00:06:37.52 --> 00:06:43.60] account it it it's always will depend on

[00:06:41.16 --> 00:06:45.80] the request that the customer is Mak

[00:06:43.60 --> 00:06:49.80] right and your company goals and your

[00:06:45.80 --> 00:06:54.24] product goals so if the client request

[00:06:49.80 --> 00:06:56.20] matches your main objective you may go

[00:06:54.24 --> 00:06:58.92] with the client and say well let's

[00:06:56.20 --> 00:07:01.00] discuss what's the main problem that

[00:06:58.92 --> 00:07:04.68] you're trying so for example the email

[00:07:01.00 --> 00:07:07.48] issue that they want some uh specific

[00:07:04.68 --> 00:07:10.52] customized email notifications you may

[00:07:07.48 --> 00:07:12.80] not do it directly right away the way

[00:07:10.52 --> 00:07:15.68] the customer has described but rather

[00:07:12.80 --> 00:07:17.84] understand what the root issue that is

[00:07:15.68 --> 00:07:20.56] like why they want that email basically

[00:07:17.84 --> 00:07:23.08] yeah yeah you understand that okay

[00:07:20.56 --> 00:07:27.48] notific getting notifications is the

[00:07:23.08 --> 00:07:29.84] main goal and then you brainstorm inside

[00:07:27.48 --> 00:07:32.52] the scope of your product to understand

[00:07:29.84 --> 00:07:35.72] how notifications could fit in as a

[00:07:32.52 --> 00:07:39.24] product feature not a custom element for

[00:07:35.72 --> 00:07:40.96] this client only that would be

[00:07:39.24 --> 00:07:43.52] accommodating the client who is

[00:07:40.96 --> 00:07:47.60] technically paying you and assuming that

[00:07:43.52 --> 00:07:50.64] you'll do anything to keep them uh by

[00:07:47.60 --> 00:07:54.00] your side and not losing the main thread

[00:07:50.64 --> 00:07:56.32] of the uh product to go into your road

[00:07:54.00 --> 00:07:58.12] map to go into your objectives and goals

[00:07:56.32 --> 00:08:00.24] for sure so we talked yeah that's a lot

[00:07:58.12 --> 00:08:01.84] of episode two for everybody anybody

[00:08:00.24 --> 00:08:04.16] interested episode two has a ton of

[00:08:01.84 --> 00:08:05.84] interesting detail and a little uh

[00:08:04.16 --> 00:08:07.88] example that we run together on like

[00:08:05.84 --> 00:08:09.20] research and what Mar just described

[00:08:07.88 --> 00:08:11.20] which is like getting to the root cause

[00:08:09.20 --> 00:08:14.00] of why somebody wants something so I

[00:08:11.20 --> 00:08:17.60] think uh if this topic interests you

[00:08:14.00 --> 00:08:19.40] definitely go listen episode two uh L

[00:08:17.60 --> 00:08:23.04] what what are your thoughts on like you

[00:08:19.40 --> 00:08:25.96] have a product built yeah it's there

[00:08:23.04 --> 00:08:28.16] okay you have uh two PE two clients two

[00:08:25.96 --> 00:08:31.20] customers paying for it and they're

[00:08:28.16 --> 00:08:34.28] paying you know a couple hundred a month

[00:08:31.20 --> 00:08:37.44] and you know it's not the end of the

[00:08:34.28 --> 00:08:39.56] world if they were to disappear but

[00:08:37.44 --> 00:08:40.80] they're asking for I don't want to say

[00:08:39.56 --> 00:08:42.48] unreasonable requests like

[00:08:40.80 --> 00:08:43.96] semi-reasonable requests that they

[00:08:42.48 --> 00:08:45.24] they're not asking for fun like they

[00:08:43.96 --> 00:08:47.28] didn't wake up in the morning and say

[00:08:45.24 --> 00:08:48.32] I'm just going to go mess with they woke

[00:08:47.28 --> 00:08:50.16] up in the morning and they're like they

[00:08:48.32 --> 00:08:51.52] had a problem that they want to solve so

[00:08:50.16 --> 00:08:52.64] presumably it's coming from a real

[00:08:51.52 --> 00:08:56.28] Market

[00:08:52.64 --> 00:08:58.48] need how do you as a developer or an

[00:08:56.28 --> 00:09:02.12] engineer how do you think about that in

[00:08:58.48 --> 00:09:05.48] terms of like customization cuz I'll

[00:09:02.12 --> 00:09:07.64] prefix it with like we've all seen some

[00:09:05.48 --> 00:09:09.92] uh let's say systems that we've built

[00:09:07.64 --> 00:09:12.32] where some sometimes we've done this by

[00:09:09.92 --> 00:09:15.40] the way where we just have like a sh ton

[00:09:12.32 --> 00:09:16.96] of if statements for specific uh

[00:09:15.40 --> 00:09:18.00] customers because we don't want to piss

[00:09:16.96 --> 00:09:21.84] that customer off especially if they're

[00:09:18.00 --> 00:09:25.16] a big one so how do you deal with that

[00:09:21.84 --> 00:09:28.12] like just give me your thoughts on uh

[00:09:25.16 --> 00:09:30.76] customization for specific cities or

[00:09:28.12 --> 00:09:33.16] customers so let's take it back a step

[00:09:30.76 --> 00:09:36.80] what are the goals you're trying to

[00:09:33.16 --> 00:09:40.24] accomplish you as the product uh Builder

[00:09:36.80 --> 00:09:44.20] as the the man on the steering wheel at

[00:09:40.24 --> 00:09:46.28] the helm does the client needs align

[00:09:44.20 --> 00:09:48.56] with your goals or don't they that's the

[00:09:46.28 --> 00:09:52.96] question we should be asking let's

[00:09:48.56 --> 00:09:54.80] there's a mismatch they don't yeah so I

[00:09:52.96 --> 00:09:58.84] think diplomacy here is the best option

[00:09:54.80 --> 00:10:00.36] you should like like check so you you

[00:09:58.84 --> 00:10:03.72] should consider of course what the

[00:10:00.36 --> 00:10:05.60] client is asking for but uh I feel like

[00:10:03.72 --> 00:10:07.76] you should always outweigh like the pros

[00:10:05.60 --> 00:10:11.04] and cons of what they're asking before

[00:10:07.76 --> 00:10:13.76] you implement it and if it might steer

[00:10:11.04 --> 00:10:16.64] you towards like your end goal

[00:10:13.76 --> 00:10:18.80] eventually um then yes we might maybe

[00:10:16.64 --> 00:10:21.60] Implement a small subset of the things

[00:10:18.80 --> 00:10:23.68] they're asking for or the whole thing

[00:10:21.60 --> 00:10:26.16] but uh it should always always align

[00:10:23.68 --> 00:10:28.40] with what we want to achieve in the end

[00:10:26.16 --> 00:10:30.72] uh so we don't get like uh into a

[00:10:28.40 --> 00:10:32.64] roundabout and just go around in circles

[00:10:30.72 --> 00:10:36.32] you know or just take another way

[00:10:32.64 --> 00:10:39.28] another path and end up uh regretting it

[00:10:36.32 --> 00:10:41.36] later on when the client isn't happy

[00:10:39.28 --> 00:10:43.84] anymore and just wants to not pay

[00:10:41.36 --> 00:10:45.72] anymore and like yeah we so you have to

[00:10:43.84 --> 00:10:46.96] think about it future wise like with

[00:10:45.72 --> 00:10:48.44] your goals that's what I think like

[00:10:46.96 --> 00:10:50.36] longterm does it fit in right is what

[00:10:48.44 --> 00:10:51.52] you're saying I'm going to put yeah I'm

[00:10:50.36 --> 00:10:53.56] going to I'm going to put you on the

[00:10:51.52 --> 00:10:55.32] spot man and ask you a quick question of

[00:10:53.56 --> 00:10:57.72] an actual request that came in yesterday

[00:10:55.32 --> 00:11:00.48] and I just remembered it on one of our

[00:10:57.72 --> 00:11:03.20] projects we have have uh like a front

[00:11:00.48 --> 00:11:05.60] end UI let's say this is one of our

[00:11:03.20 --> 00:11:07.20] older beloved partners and and customers

[00:11:05.60 --> 00:11:09.56] that we have worked with for a very long

[00:11:07.20 --> 00:11:12.12] time and one of their

[00:11:09.56 --> 00:11:15.32] customers asked

[00:11:12.12 --> 00:11:16.60] for can we change the font for a

[00:11:15.32 --> 00:11:18.68] specific

[00:11:16.60 --> 00:11:21.12] title to

[00:11:18.68 --> 00:11:23.16] helvetica from like a Sarah font that we

[00:11:21.12 --> 00:11:28.36] are

[00:11:23.16 --> 00:11:30.72] using and my my my first response was I

[00:11:28.36 --> 00:11:32.80] mean sure can be done but like is it

[00:11:30.72 --> 00:11:34.32] that big of a

[00:11:32.80 --> 00:11:37.32] deal

[00:11:34.32 --> 00:11:39.44] and I quoted them whatever it is like to

[00:11:37.32 --> 00:11:42.20] take whatever time it would take to do

[00:11:39.44 --> 00:11:43.80] that to change a font sitewide because I

[00:11:42.20 --> 00:11:45.60] was like look everybody El helvetica

[00:11:43.80 --> 00:11:47.08] let's just change it for everybody and

[00:11:45.60 --> 00:11:49.80] then they came back with the a curve

[00:11:47.08 --> 00:11:53.60] ball and they were like is this change

[00:11:49.80 --> 00:11:55.88] going to be systemwide or can all

[00:11:53.60 --> 00:12:00.96] customers like is it just for this

[00:11:55.88 --> 00:12:00.96] specific client this specific uh event

[00:12:01.56 --> 00:12:05.44] and can other clients choose their fonts

[00:12:03.64 --> 00:12:09.04] I was like ah man like this is turning

[00:12:05.44 --> 00:12:10.24] into like disregard my for syst you know

[00:12:09.04 --> 00:12:11.44] like what is it that you need how would

[00:12:10.24 --> 00:12:14.76] you approach this how would you handle

[00:12:11.44 --> 00:12:17.32] it this is turning into a web flow like

[00:12:14.76 --> 00:12:20.20] right right like it's a spectrum of at

[00:12:17.32 --> 00:12:22.28] the at the first end of the spectrum no

[00:12:20.20 --> 00:12:23.72] no away we're not changing the

[00:12:22.28 --> 00:12:26.28] designer did

[00:12:23.72 --> 00:12:28.24] this the other end of the spectrum is

[00:12:26.28 --> 00:12:31.12] okay customize everything your font your

[00:12:28.24 --> 00:12:34.48] bold your it your uh custom funds upload

[00:12:31.12 --> 00:12:37.84] your own funds Google fonts uh where do

[00:12:34.48 --> 00:12:39.60] you do you go to the extreme ends or is

[00:12:37.84 --> 00:12:42.68] it somewhere in the

[00:12:39.60 --> 00:12:45.08] middle uh personally uh I

[00:12:42.68 --> 00:12:47.80] wouldn't deal with that I would say no

[00:12:45.08 --> 00:12:49.44] of course but uh I I should ask them why

[00:12:47.80 --> 00:12:52.44] you know why do you want to change the

[00:12:49.44 --> 00:12:54.76] what's the point why istic an important

[00:12:52.44 --> 00:12:56.56] choice for your important fund okay

[00:12:54.76 --> 00:12:58.84] maybe it's their brand identity you know

[00:12:56.56 --> 00:13:00.88] they use helvetica true then I would say

[00:12:58.84 --> 00:13:04.20] H okay you have a point that's fair

[00:13:00.88 --> 00:13:07.64] enough and we might consider it and uh

[00:13:04.20 --> 00:13:10.48] maybe check how long it would take to uh

[00:13:07.64 --> 00:13:13.24] make this this title uh configurable

[00:13:10.48 --> 00:13:16.04] across the board if it's too much work I

[00:13:13.24 --> 00:13:18.52] just change it for that client and just

[00:13:16.04 --> 00:13:21.28] be done with it

[00:13:18.52 --> 00:13:23.84] because um how many times are we get

[00:13:21.28 --> 00:13:26.08] going to get this request really so we

[00:13:23.84 --> 00:13:27.40] have to really um it's a first time I've

[00:13:26.08 --> 00:13:29.72] ever seen it by the way it's the first

[00:13:27.40 --> 00:13:31.48] time right so if there's another time

[00:13:29.72 --> 00:13:33.84] like a second time a third time then we

[00:13:31.48 --> 00:13:36.92] might consider okay let's make the title

[00:13:33.84 --> 00:13:38.84] configurable the font title and maybe

[00:13:36.92 --> 00:13:40.08] let make let's make the entire text on

[00:13:38.84 --> 00:13:43.40] the page

[00:13:40.08 --> 00:13:46.24] configurable text uh font uh boldness

[00:13:43.40 --> 00:13:48.28] whatever you know but we should really

[00:13:46.24 --> 00:13:50.12] think about how many times are we going

[00:13:48.28 --> 00:13:53.64] to get this request if it's just one

[00:13:50.12 --> 00:13:55.08] time we can do it um like in a hacky way

[00:13:53.64 --> 00:13:57.08] and that's it and be done with it but if

[00:13:55.08 --> 00:13:58.64] we get it like three four times in a row

[00:13:57.08 --> 00:13:59.96] then we should consider it so I might

[00:13:58.64 --> 00:14:04.52] say say no at first but then I would

[00:13:59.96 --> 00:14:06.80] think about it and say um okay um let's

[00:14:04.52 --> 00:14:09.60] do it and we'll see what happens in the

[00:14:06.80 --> 00:14:12.36] future with other clients okay so you

[00:14:09.60 --> 00:14:14.48] would go with like a like I'll customize

[00:14:12.36 --> 00:14:16.16] for this specific client till it works

[00:14:14.48 --> 00:14:17.56] right cuz you want them to be happy and

[00:14:16.16 --> 00:14:19.52] then you'll disagree but I'm going to

[00:14:17.56 --> 00:14:21.40] change it for you yeah later on

[00:14:19.52 --> 00:14:24.56] interesting yeah okay if you yeah

[00:14:21.40 --> 00:14:26.52] exactly so if you start yeah uh charging

[00:14:24.56 --> 00:14:28.76] them for it say it's an extra feature on

[00:14:26.52 --> 00:14:30.92] their monthly plan then you've gained

[00:14:28.76 --> 00:14:35.80] something here right M but it should

[00:14:30.92 --> 00:14:38.80] really be after you get some uh requests

[00:14:35.80 --> 00:14:40.60] like like more evidence than one request

[00:14:38.80 --> 00:14:42.16] yeah yeah exactly Marana how do you

[00:14:40.60 --> 00:14:44.08] approach that discussion with the client

[00:14:42.16 --> 00:14:45.84] I want my phone I love helvetica let's

[00:14:44.08 --> 00:14:48.48] say that's the reason the reason is that

[00:14:45.84 --> 00:14:52.08] I love H etica guys I just love it it's

[00:14:48.48 --> 00:14:55.88] my fav actually a few uh approaches that

[00:14:52.08 --> 00:14:58.80] I was thinking of at this time uh one is

[00:14:55.88 --> 00:15:02.32] actually asking says this is a very

[00:14:58.80 --> 00:15:04.52] specific product that is B2B Tob or like

[00:15:02.32 --> 00:15:07.04] B2B Toc in some sense that's exactly

[00:15:04.52 --> 00:15:09.84] what it is yeah and in this case since

[00:15:07.04 --> 00:15:11.88] we are not the ones directly working

[00:15:09.84 --> 00:15:13.36] with the actual clients that are using

[00:15:11.88 --> 00:15:18.60] the

[00:15:13.36 --> 00:15:23.80] platform uh my accommodating self would

[00:15:18.60 --> 00:15:26.08] say I would uh suggest you to uh survey

[00:15:23.80 --> 00:15:29.32] your clients and see if there are any

[00:15:26.08 --> 00:15:31.72] other people uh thinking of feature as

[00:15:29.32 --> 00:15:34.60] well because if they are maybe we can

[00:15:31.72 --> 00:15:38.72] increase the prices for both uh end

[00:15:34.60 --> 00:15:41.36] points uh and both you and us can earn

[00:15:38.72 --> 00:15:44.92] more money on this additional feature

[00:15:41.36 --> 00:15:48.48] that is white labeling or like uh

[00:15:44.92 --> 00:15:52.12] branding your uh platform or something

[00:15:48.48 --> 00:15:55.28] like that so in this case maybe this is

[00:15:52.12 --> 00:15:59.84] a feature that people didn't think they

[00:15:55.28 --> 00:16:05.00] need but they actually need so just like

[00:15:59.84 --> 00:16:07.44] the um iPods case of Apple no one knew

[00:16:05.00 --> 00:16:09.52] they needed iPods but when Apple

[00:16:07.44 --> 00:16:12.40] introduced iPods turned out everyone

[00:16:09.52 --> 00:16:14.24] needed them so in this case maybe people

[00:16:12.40 --> 00:16:16.84] are not thinking of it because they

[00:16:14.24 --> 00:16:18.72] don't have the the functionality but

[00:16:16.84 --> 00:16:22.08] they might be willing to pay for it they

[00:16:18.72 --> 00:16:25.72] might be willing to pay extra per month

[00:16:22.08 --> 00:16:29.60] for it so in this case my as I said

[00:16:25.72 --> 00:16:32.52] accommodating sell the products uh

[00:16:29.60 --> 00:16:35.28] side of me would say uh do a customer

[00:16:32.52 --> 00:16:38.00] survey see if there are any more people

[00:16:35.28 --> 00:16:40.20] requesting it and if it's a yes then

[00:16:38.00 --> 00:16:43.20] let's think of a pricing model that will

[00:16:40.20 --> 00:16:46.40] work for both of us uh a quote for a

[00:16:43.20 --> 00:16:50.04] global change that will accommodate all

[00:16:46.40 --> 00:16:52.00] the clients wanting those features if if

[00:16:50.04 --> 00:16:54.04] there's like zero interest in it and

[00:16:52.00 --> 00:16:56.32] there's only this one client that is

[00:16:54.04 --> 00:16:57.28] really hesitant about their fund and

[00:16:56.32 --> 00:17:01.12] their

[00:16:57.28 --> 00:17:04.84] italics uh I'd say okay we can do this

[00:17:01.12 --> 00:17:07.84] um if it's a long-term client and we

[00:17:04.84 --> 00:17:09.72] have had working with them for a long

[00:17:07.84 --> 00:17:13.60] time I would give that as a gift because

[00:17:09.72 --> 00:17:16.52] it's not very big deal to write an if

[00:17:13.60 --> 00:17:19.20] statement for a specific subdomain or an

[00:17:16.52 --> 00:17:21.72] event within the platform but if it's a

[00:17:19.20 --> 00:17:24.16] new client I would just tell that it's

[00:17:21.72 --> 00:17:28.88] an additional feature for a very small

[00:17:24.16 --> 00:17:31.80] amount of money and upsell it as an ADD

[00:17:28.88 --> 00:17:34.72] functionality for your client so that

[00:17:31.80 --> 00:17:37.80] would be my Approach because in this

[00:17:34.72 --> 00:17:39.68] case it would be very stupid to do it

[00:17:37.80 --> 00:17:42.56] globally without understanding if it's

[00:17:39.68 --> 00:17:46.24] needed at all and like charge the whole

[00:17:42.56 --> 00:17:48.28] client uh and their client till just

[00:17:46.24 --> 00:17:51.36] because a client decided that their

[00:17:48.28 --> 00:17:54.48] branding is too important to them but

[00:17:51.36 --> 00:17:57.64] ignoring it completely would not

[00:17:54.48 --> 00:17:59.16] bece yeah I think I think we all agree

[00:17:57.64 --> 00:18:00.60] that like on that Spectrum first you're

[00:17:59.16 --> 00:18:01.96] going to give them what they need cuz

[00:18:00.60 --> 00:18:04.16] it's a simple

[00:18:01.96 --> 00:18:06.36] change and then long term you're going

[00:18:04.16 --> 00:18:07.76] to think of how it fix it might be a

[00:18:06.36 --> 00:18:09.48] valid requests like people want their

[00:18:07.76 --> 00:18:11.20] brand guide to be out there especially

[00:18:09.48 --> 00:18:14.28] because it's BWB Toc you're

[00:18:11.20 --> 00:18:16.76] right um that's like the easy example

[00:18:14.28 --> 00:18:18.32] I'm giving out today which is you know

[00:18:16.76 --> 00:18:20.76] font change which is funny because it

[00:18:18.32 --> 00:18:23.16] just came through even after we decided

[00:18:20.76 --> 00:18:26.16] the topic it's like the universe is

[00:18:23.16 --> 00:18:29.52] sending us signals maybe this is a great

[00:18:26.16 --> 00:18:31.64] example of um what we're going to talk

[00:18:29.52 --> 00:18:35.48] about like like you said

[00:18:31.64 --> 00:18:39.76] productization um but um I was G to say

[00:18:35.48 --> 00:18:41.52] something uh so would you really want to

[00:18:39.76 --> 00:18:42.72] this is the developer in me talking

[00:18:41.52 --> 00:18:47.08] would you really want to open the

[00:18:42.72 --> 00:18:49.84] panderas box of uh doing the customer

[00:18:47.08 --> 00:18:52.12] survey yeah like maybe that's GNA open

[00:18:49.84 --> 00:18:54.00] like a whole new thing dude I'm

[00:18:52.12 --> 00:18:55.32] terrified of that like I'm I'm so

[00:18:54.00 --> 00:18:57.12] giving that test to Marana and I don't

[00:18:55.32 --> 00:18:59.00] want to even know the results like when

[00:18:57.12 --> 00:19:01.32] we do it for do most for example like I

[00:18:59.00 --> 00:19:02.80] don't cuz customers when you ask them

[00:19:01.32 --> 00:19:04.64] they might give you some very

[00:19:02.80 --> 00:19:07.44] interesting insight and I

[00:19:04.64 --> 00:19:09.76] should yeah I would like to turn on the

[00:19:07.44 --> 00:19:12.72] lights when a user sign

[00:19:09.76 --> 00:19:16.52] it yeah this is the developer in me not

[00:19:12.72 --> 00:19:18.56] the actual like uh I shouldn't like feel

[00:19:16.52 --> 00:19:20.76] this way but I do as a developer you

[00:19:18.56 --> 00:19:22.80] know but that's the wrong the wrong path

[00:19:20.76 --> 00:19:25.24] to take you know you should always

[00:19:22.80 --> 00:19:28.48] listen to your customers uh yeah I think

[00:19:25.24 --> 00:19:32.84] researching a little bit more uh user

[00:19:28.48 --> 00:19:36.00] experience gives you another mindset of

[00:19:32.84 --> 00:19:38.12] users behaviors as well so like when you

[00:19:36.00 --> 00:19:41.88] actually go into the product side of

[00:19:38.12 --> 00:19:45.72] things and realize that how impactful

[00:19:41.88 --> 00:19:48.32] can a single change be uh in the

[00:19:45.72 --> 00:19:51.76] customer's eyes you then understand that

[00:19:48.32 --> 00:19:53.68] okay surveying might reveal so many more

[00:19:51.76 --> 00:19:57.44] things that you're not willing to do at

[00:19:53.68 --> 00:20:00.52] all have zero patience efforts energy

[00:19:57.44 --> 00:20:02.56] resources to do all of that but then at

[00:20:00.52 --> 00:20:05.04] least you know what they want and at

[00:20:02.56 --> 00:20:09.08] least you can prioritize your next

[00:20:05.04 --> 00:20:13.20] Sprint cycle or however your methodology

[00:20:09.08 --> 00:20:15.36] of development the product is uh at

[00:20:13.20 --> 00:20:20.60] least now you have a better sense of

[00:20:15.36 --> 00:20:25.88] direction and it's uh I would want to

[00:20:20.60 --> 00:20:27.76] compare it as an analog per map like you

[00:20:25.88 --> 00:20:29.76] when you sit in a car and you start

[00:20:27.76 --> 00:20:32.64] driving thing you need to ask the

[00:20:29.76 --> 00:20:35.08] customer where they want to go to have

[00:20:32.64 --> 00:20:38.64] the final Direction point on the map

[00:20:35.08 --> 00:20:41.52] pinned so you know how to get to that

[00:20:38.64 --> 00:20:43.80] point otherwise when you're just driving

[00:20:41.52 --> 00:20:46.32] around and you're getting nowhere

[00:20:43.80 --> 00:20:50.08] because you're thinking well I might

[00:20:46.32 --> 00:20:53.48] also go to go pick up some groceries I

[00:20:50.08 --> 00:20:55.96] might as well uh fill up the gas tank I

[00:20:53.48 --> 00:20:58.12] might as well change the oil but instead

[00:20:55.96 --> 00:21:01.48] you all you needed to do was go to the

[00:20:58.12 --> 00:21:04.24] the next uh blog's coffee shop and grab

[00:21:01.48 --> 00:21:07.40] a coffee so you need to understand what

[00:21:04.24 --> 00:21:10.80] the client's final goal is with your

[00:21:07.40 --> 00:21:13.88] product and like especially with the

[00:21:10.80 --> 00:21:17.16] current uh product

[00:21:13.88 --> 00:21:19.84] development trends that I'm seeing is

[00:21:17.16 --> 00:21:23.12] trying to provide all-in-one Solutions

[00:21:19.84 --> 00:21:25.08] which is also not a good thing because

[00:21:23.12 --> 00:21:28.16] uh a lot of

[00:21:25.08 --> 00:21:30.12] the products that I'm using a lot of

[00:21:28.16 --> 00:21:32.68] softwares that I'm using are trying to

[00:21:30.12 --> 00:21:35.76] give me everything at once and trying to

[00:21:32.68 --> 00:21:38.40] upsell at once meanwhile all I wanted

[00:21:35.76 --> 00:21:41.96] from you was this one simple thing like

[00:21:38.40 --> 00:21:45.96] if it's a clickup uh for example or I

[00:21:41.96 --> 00:21:48.60] don't know figma whatever the I'm using

[00:21:45.96 --> 00:21:50.80] it for the main features of this product

[00:21:48.60 --> 00:21:52.88] and I'm already using another solution

[00:21:50.80 --> 00:21:58.92] for this other KN and I'm not really

[00:21:52.88 --> 00:22:00.76] willing to switch my whole data or

[00:21:58.92 --> 00:22:03.68] my whole information that I already have

[00:22:00.76 --> 00:22:06.00] built in this other platform just to

[00:22:03.68 --> 00:22:08.68] have everything in one place although I

[00:22:06.00 --> 00:22:10.80] as a project manager like love to have

[00:22:08.68 --> 00:22:13.04] it organized in one place so it's

[00:22:10.80 --> 00:22:14.76] reachable so everything is connected you

[00:22:13.04 --> 00:22:17.16] can link everything you can put on

[00:22:14.76 --> 00:22:19.88] relationships dependencies I know

[00:22:17.16 --> 00:22:22.76] everything it's super nice and like very

[00:22:19.88 --> 00:22:26.12] efficient but I'm not willing to do the

[00:22:22.76 --> 00:22:28.32] step of saying bye to something that

[00:22:26.12 --> 00:22:30.56] I've already been using for so long and

[00:22:28.32 --> 00:22:32.48] I'm so used to it and I've accommodated

[00:22:30.56 --> 00:22:35.84] all my data points to it all my

[00:22:32.48 --> 00:22:37.96] resources to it so in this case

[00:22:35.84 --> 00:22:41.24] sometimes the trend to have everything

[00:22:37.96 --> 00:22:44.44] at once in one prodct that's yeah all in

[00:22:41.24 --> 00:22:46.80] one solution the toxic toxic words of

[00:22:44.44 --> 00:22:48.96] that's too much customization I think

[00:22:46.80 --> 00:22:52.84] because that's a little bit of

[00:22:48.96 --> 00:22:55.04] greediness as well I will be uh saying

[00:22:52.84 --> 00:22:58.00] because you're trying to capture the

[00:22:55.04 --> 00:23:00.96] whole Market meanwhile the product man

[00:22:58.00 --> 00:23:03.44] management perspective always says to

[00:23:00.96 --> 00:23:05.56] find a niche where you can be the best

[00:23:03.44 --> 00:23:07.92] in that Niche and that's going to give

[00:23:05.56 --> 00:23:11.04] you higher Revenue that's going to give

[00:23:07.92 --> 00:23:12.96] you a better perspective of your product

[00:23:11.04 --> 00:23:15.12] better objectives and your clients are

[00:23:12.96 --> 00:23:17.40] going to need you for that specific

[00:23:15.12 --> 00:23:19.92] thing and are going to be demanding of

[00:23:17.40 --> 00:23:23.80] very specific features instead of yeah I

[00:23:19.92 --> 00:23:25.56] want notifications I want this you know

[00:23:23.80 --> 00:23:26.68] it's funny it reminds me of like a

[00:23:25.56 --> 00:23:29.24] really funny thing that happened two

[00:23:26.68 --> 00:23:32.44] days ago when we were when you and I and

[00:23:29.24 --> 00:23:34.52] uh Armen were Googling for like we're

[00:23:32.44 --> 00:23:37.72] just looking at engineering as marketing

[00:23:34.52 --> 00:23:40.08] type of things on on Google and we're

[00:23:37.72 --> 00:23:41.56] Googling for uh Drag and Drop app

[00:23:40.08 --> 00:23:42.80] builder I think was the keyword we're

[00:23:41.56 --> 00:23:45.44] just messing with keywords we're trying

[00:23:42.80 --> 00:23:48.32] to see like what are some keywords with

[00:23:45.44 --> 00:23:50.64] high search volume low

[00:23:48.32 --> 00:23:54.08] competition

[00:23:50.64 --> 00:23:56.60] and we get one of the results which says

[00:23:54.08 --> 00:23:58.96] uh Drag and Drop app builder it's like

[00:23:56.60 --> 00:24:03.64] ranked number three on the the page and

[00:23:58.96 --> 00:24:03.64] it's uh it's it's a survey

[00:24:03.80 --> 00:24:09.72] software so you can build a for okay so

[00:24:07.64 --> 00:24:11.00] I remember you know Armen at the time is

[00:24:09.72 --> 00:24:12.40] like he he like I don't know the service

[00:24:11.00 --> 00:24:16.20] what is it oh it must be a Dr and drop

[00:24:12.40 --> 00:24:18.04] I'm like bro it's a it's a freaking uh

[00:24:16.20 --> 00:24:20.44] survey software so we go in and we

[00:24:18.04 --> 00:24:21.52] create an account you can just the only

[00:24:20.44 --> 00:24:24.56] thing they add is that you can create a

[00:24:21.52 --> 00:24:27.32] separate page that has like images and

[00:24:24.56 --> 00:24:28.88] text and then it goes to your form okay

[00:24:27.32 --> 00:24:30.52] ah so most people think maybe they want

[00:24:28.88 --> 00:24:33.88] an app but it turns out they just want

[00:24:30.52 --> 00:24:36.00] like a form for maybe a multistep form

[00:24:33.88 --> 00:24:37.72] right so it's not an app builder it's

[00:24:36.00 --> 00:24:40.68] when I say app builder to as like the

[00:24:37.72 --> 00:24:43.32] developer he's like oh yeah databases

[00:24:40.68 --> 00:24:46.28] and end points and components

[00:24:43.32 --> 00:24:49.48] and uh and it's just their way of

[00:24:46.28 --> 00:24:51.72] harvesting leads on exactly

[00:24:49.48 --> 00:24:54.88] Google most people are fine to go with

[00:24:51.72 --> 00:24:58.24] just Google form really like all that's

[00:24:54.88 --> 00:25:00.56] all they need when you get down to it

[00:24:58.24 --> 00:25:02.32] yeah I just want to say something about

[00:25:00.56 --> 00:25:05.08] what Mariana said like the all-in-one

[00:25:02.32 --> 00:25:07.96] solution uh technically this just

[00:25:05.08 --> 00:25:09.96] creates a bunch of bloat like a bunch of

[00:25:07.96 --> 00:25:12.96] bloated software and dealing with

[00:25:09.96 --> 00:25:15.16] bloated software um it can't take you

[00:25:12.96 --> 00:25:19.12] that far eventually you'll have to

[00:25:15.16 --> 00:25:21.44] sacrifice some quality somewhere either

[00:25:19.12 --> 00:25:24.52] this corner that corner quality will be

[00:25:21.44 --> 00:25:26.92] sacrificed so technically you're right

[00:25:24.52 --> 00:25:29.64] like the all-in-one Solutions are not

[00:25:26.92 --> 00:25:32.32] the way to go very bad in my opinion

[00:25:29.64 --> 00:25:35.72] just focus on a few things do them well

[00:25:32.32 --> 00:25:37.48] and don't try to be everything you know

[00:25:35.72 --> 00:25:40.32] don't do everything because eventually

[00:25:37.48 --> 00:25:43.20] you end up with a massively bloated

[00:25:40.32 --> 00:25:45.28] piece of software and it's maintaining

[00:25:43.20 --> 00:25:47.84] it which just requires so much effort

[00:25:45.28 --> 00:25:50.72] and so much time so much money so much

[00:25:47.84 --> 00:25:53.68] people and even iterating on it like

[00:25:50.72 --> 00:25:55.60] adding features to it will be even

[00:25:53.68 --> 00:25:58.16] harder so it's a headache you're

[00:25:55.60 --> 00:26:00.00] shooting yourself in the phone yeah even

[00:25:58.16 --> 00:26:02.64] breaking that up into microservices

[00:26:00.00 --> 00:26:05.44] won't do any won't do any good if you

[00:26:02.64 --> 00:26:07.60] think of products like clickup it's

[00:26:05.44 --> 00:26:09.56] interesting because uh we worked with a

[00:26:07.60 --> 00:26:10.92] company they shall not be named and we

[00:26:09.56 --> 00:26:13.48] had trouble holding it together during

[00:26:10.92 --> 00:26:16.00] the meeting like we were there in

[00:26:13.48 --> 00:26:18.84] person and uh somebody comes in with an

[00:26:16.00 --> 00:26:20.80] idea they should also not be named and

[00:26:18.84 --> 00:26:24.12] they're

[00:26:20.80 --> 00:26:26.12] like we asked them okay they were they

[00:26:24.12 --> 00:26:29.40] working on like an automation project

[00:26:26.12 --> 00:26:31.12] like uh some sort of project to uh

[00:26:29.40 --> 00:26:32.88] automate certain parts of the

[00:26:31.12 --> 00:26:36.32] company

[00:26:32.88 --> 00:26:38.40] and they're like we've decided like they

[00:26:36.32 --> 00:26:40.48] had been building custom software for

[00:26:38.40 --> 00:26:42.16] the last six months or a year and

[00:26:40.48 --> 00:26:44.32] they're getting a lot of customization

[00:26:42.16 --> 00:26:47.80] questions like can we have different

[00:26:44.32 --> 00:26:50.40] statuses for the steps of the Automation

[00:26:47.80 --> 00:26:53.68] and some genius came up with an idea

[00:26:50.40 --> 00:26:56.60] they're like we're going to use clickup

[00:26:53.68 --> 00:26:58.20] for factory

[00:26:56.60 --> 00:27:00.16] automation

[00:26:58.20 --> 00:27:03.76] so me and Le are sitting there we're

[00:27:00.16 --> 00:27:05.12] like clickup or we're like what what do

[00:27:03.76 --> 00:27:06.60] you mean clickup it's a project

[00:27:05.12 --> 00:27:08.52] management tool like because it has

[00:27:06.60 --> 00:27:10.64] statuses and like our product has

[00:27:08.52 --> 00:27:12.04] statuses too like how does that how is

[00:27:10.64 --> 00:27:13.12] this happening like what do you mean

[00:27:12.04 --> 00:27:14.96] they're like yeah what we're going to do

[00:27:13.12 --> 00:27:18.08] is we're going to integrate all of our

[00:27:14.96 --> 00:27:21.24] systems with clickup and then the users

[00:27:18.08 --> 00:27:23.84] can just go in and change whatever they

[00:27:21.24 --> 00:27:25.68] want so I think it was at the time so

[00:27:23.84 --> 00:27:26.84] we're like okay so you guys just need

[00:27:25.68 --> 00:27:29.20] something that can let you do like

[00:27:26.84 --> 00:27:31.80] custom attribut and different statuses

[00:27:29.20 --> 00:27:33.36] like is that or do you actually need to

[00:27:31.80 --> 00:27:35.72] do something

[00:27:33.36 --> 00:27:37.36] worthwhile and it turns out they were

[00:27:35.72 --> 00:27:38.88] abandoning their whole custom

[00:27:37.36 --> 00:27:41.16] development

[00:27:38.88 --> 00:27:43.12] schedule because they needed custom

[00:27:41.16 --> 00:27:44.68] statuses literally those two things

[00:27:43.12 --> 00:27:47.72] custom

[00:27:44.68 --> 00:27:48.80] statuses and custom attributes and I

[00:27:47.72 --> 00:27:50.04] noticed we were talking to the

[00:27:48.80 --> 00:27:51.96] developers there were some developers in

[00:27:50.04 --> 00:27:53.72] the room and we even left we're in the

[00:27:51.96 --> 00:27:55.92] parking lot talking we're like they

[00:27:53.72 --> 00:27:58.24] can't think at a higher level of

[00:27:55.92 --> 00:28:01.40] abstraction like the con concept of

[00:27:58.24 --> 00:28:04.20] saying how do I make my statuses

[00:28:01.40 --> 00:28:06.32] configurable on like another level up

[00:28:04.20 --> 00:28:07.72] they could not grasp they couldn't get

[00:28:06.32 --> 00:28:10.00] it not not because they're stupid people

[00:28:07.72 --> 00:28:11.92] they're great people but it's because

[00:28:10.00 --> 00:28:14.00] they were always in a service mindset

[00:28:11.92 --> 00:28:16.04] not a productization mindset they're not

[00:28:14.00 --> 00:28:17.72] building a product for the world they

[00:28:16.04 --> 00:28:20.76] have 20 different departments calling

[00:28:17.72 --> 00:28:22.64] them and as smart people that want to

[00:28:20.76 --> 00:28:24.12] keep their jobs there we need to serve

[00:28:22.64 --> 00:28:26.36] the Departments that are asking for

[00:28:24.12 --> 00:28:28.88] stuff and that's where it fell apart cuz

[00:28:26.36 --> 00:28:30.72] you get like somebody in uh a specific

[00:28:28.88 --> 00:28:32.68] Department like whatever accounting

[00:28:30.72 --> 00:28:34.40] Revenue they're like I need this and I

[00:28:32.68 --> 00:28:35.56] need this next week so you're like all

[00:28:34.40 --> 00:28:37.60] right screw you dude I'm not going to

[00:28:35.56 --> 00:28:39.72] make this customizable like here you go

[00:28:37.60 --> 00:28:42.28] take your feature I kept my job it's

[00:28:39.72 --> 00:28:44.16] Thursday night I'm going out don't call

[00:28:42.28 --> 00:28:45.40] me don't talk to me as long as you got

[00:28:44.16 --> 00:28:47.96] your

[00:28:45.40 --> 00:28:49.56] future whereas if they had adopted more

[00:28:47.96 --> 00:28:51.60] of like a product mindset even though

[00:28:49.56 --> 00:28:53.96] they're in a service oriented offering

[00:28:51.60 --> 00:28:55.40] that's internal to the business maybe

[00:28:53.96 --> 00:28:56.96] they could have created custom status I

[00:28:55.40 --> 00:28:58.24] remember when they proposed that like we

[00:28:56.96 --> 00:29:01.24] we couldn't like it took me a minute to

[00:28:58.24 --> 00:29:02.52] proc I'm like click up yeah and I think

[00:29:01.24 --> 00:29:04.76] there were some other propositions like

[00:29:02.52 --> 00:29:06.52] some other dumb like monday.com or

[00:29:04.76 --> 00:29:09.72] or teamwork like like another project

[00:29:06.52 --> 00:29:12.20] management tool um oh yeah yeah yeah

[00:29:09.72 --> 00:29:14.00] yeah it was I think I joked at one point

[00:29:12.20 --> 00:29:16.44] and told them just do it in a Google doc

[00:29:14.00 --> 00:29:17.01] or something yeah yeah like doing the

[00:29:16.44 --> 00:29:19.80] was an

[00:29:17.01 --> 00:29:21.96] [Laughter]

[00:29:19.80 --> 00:29:24.40]  like it's not their fault it's

[00:29:21.96 --> 00:29:29.32] thinking about it in the sense that they

[00:29:24.40 --> 00:29:32.20] are in a service oriented mindset but

[00:29:29.32 --> 00:29:33.36] like I'll say there so I maybe I'll jump

[00:29:32.20 --> 00:29:35.24] into this later I was going to talk

[00:29:33.36 --> 00:29:36.72] about like the custom metadata feature

[00:29:35.24 --> 00:29:39.28] that I just built that I'm super proud

[00:29:36.72 --> 00:29:40.56] of and tell you about all my toxic

[00:29:39.28 --> 00:29:43.32] thoughts after that to make us an

[00:29:40.56 --> 00:29:45.60] allinone type of

[00:29:43.32 --> 00:29:46.92] product but then I restrained myself I

[00:29:45.60 --> 00:29:49.56] was like how would the team react they'd

[00:29:46.92 --> 00:29:51.76] be like dude get out of my

[00:29:49.56 --> 00:29:54.72] face did you jump the

[00:29:51.76 --> 00:29:56.56] gun I I just like I I killed the idea on

[00:29:54.72 --> 00:29:58.76] my own in my own head I was like this is

[00:29:56.56 --> 00:30:02.20] a hobby not a money maker I'll go do

[00:29:58.76 --> 00:30:05.92] this on the weekend if I want to do it

[00:30:02.20 --> 00:30:09.32] like anyways yeah i' like to mention

[00:30:05.92 --> 00:30:13.44] something about the internal service

[00:30:09.32 --> 00:30:15.28] mindset type of thing as well uh because

[00:30:13.44 --> 00:30:18.20] right now what we're talking about is

[00:30:15.28 --> 00:30:21.76] usually for external clients and

[00:30:18.20 --> 00:30:25.56] products that are going to be sold to

[00:30:21.76 --> 00:30:27.60] markets uh and we don't really take into

[00:30:25.56 --> 00:30:29.76] account the internal product building

[00:30:27.60 --> 00:30:31.92] processes as well because there are a

[00:30:29.76 --> 00:30:33.88] lot of big companies and small companies

[00:30:31.92 --> 00:30:36.52] that have a whole team dedicated to

[00:30:33.88 --> 00:30:39.52] internal product building because uh

[00:30:36.52 --> 00:30:41.80] those can be very specific Niche uh

[00:30:39.52 --> 00:30:45.60] services within the company that need a

[00:30:41.80 --> 00:30:48.40] very specific uh software or something a

[00:30:45.60 --> 00:30:52.16] solution and in that case although we

[00:30:48.40 --> 00:30:55.56] don't have um that in our company and

[00:30:52.16 --> 00:30:58.12] our agency I would still want to make a

[00:30:55.56 --> 00:31:01.96] statement to everyone working in that

[00:30:58.12 --> 00:31:05.00] type of setting uh even if your clients

[00:31:01.96 --> 00:31:07.52] are your teammates or your company's

[00:31:05.00 --> 00:31:10.52] other departments they are still users

[00:31:07.52 --> 00:31:12.76] and they still deserve normal usable

[00:31:10.52 --> 00:31:15.68] products and yeah just because you're

[00:31:12.76 --> 00:31:19.68] not earning yeah just because you're not

[00:31:15.68 --> 00:31:21.28] earning extra cash on the paper from the

[00:31:19.68 --> 00:31:23.88] product that you built or from the

[00:31:21.28 --> 00:31:25.20] software that you built you don't need

[00:31:23.88 --> 00:31:27.80] to ditch the

[00:31:25.20 --> 00:31:31.28] usability uh

[00:31:27.80 --> 00:31:33.76] priority you don't need to ditch uh

[00:31:31.28 --> 00:31:35.92] having the software working bug free

[00:31:33.76 --> 00:31:38.36] error free because you're still going to

[00:31:35.92 --> 00:31:39.76] be the one bugged out about oh this

[00:31:38.36 --> 00:31:43.72] feature is not working and you're going

[00:31:39.76 --> 00:31:46.40] to get uh annoyed by all the requests

[00:31:43.72 --> 00:31:50.04] and everything meanwhile you can build

[00:31:46.40 --> 00:31:52.80] something okay and workable and usable

[00:31:50.04 --> 00:31:54.76] in the first place and not think about

[00:31:52.80 --> 00:31:56.76] oh they're annoying me with their old

[00:31:54.76 --> 00:32:00.24] new requests and Bug fixes and

[00:31:56.76 --> 00:32:03.76] everything because even if especially in

[00:32:00.24 --> 00:32:06.68] an internal team uh product

[00:32:03.76 --> 00:32:08.44] customization is a higher priority I

[00:32:06.68 --> 00:32:10.40] would say than produ

[00:32:08.44 --> 00:32:12.48] productization because in this case

[00:32:10.40 --> 00:32:15.72] you're building only for this very

[00:32:12.48 --> 00:32:18.12] specific Niche number of people maybe

[00:32:15.72 --> 00:32:20.56] one day like when a product manager or

[00:32:18.12 --> 00:32:23.20] marketing manager sees what you're using

[00:32:20.56 --> 00:32:27.40] and sees the need of the same product in

[00:32:23.20 --> 00:32:28.88] a very uh non-usual environment other

[00:32:27.40 --> 00:32:32.00] than your company outside of your

[00:32:28.88 --> 00:32:34.20] company maybe another company another uh

[00:32:32.00 --> 00:32:37.88] Market or something then you can think

[00:32:34.20 --> 00:32:41.40] of productizing it and making into

[00:32:37.88 --> 00:32:44.48] specific features uh not customizing it

[00:32:41.40 --> 00:32:47.28] too much but until the until the time

[00:32:44.48 --> 00:32:50.16] comes to give it to the external Market

[00:32:47.28 --> 00:32:53.04] to other people unless

[00:32:50.16 --> 00:32:55.36] you're going global all you need to do

[00:32:53.04 --> 00:32:57.56] is customization because the team is

[00:32:55.36 --> 00:32:59.84] relying on your software lead literally

[00:32:57.56 --> 00:33:04.04] because you're the one giving that

[00:32:59.84 --> 00:33:06.28] solution giving that product to them

[00:33:04.04 --> 00:33:08.28] it's it's a different goal right like

[00:33:06.28 --> 00:33:11.48] their like you said their goal is to

[00:33:08.28 --> 00:33:15.24] just uh do another set of tasks to keep

[00:33:11.48 --> 00:33:18.80] the company afloat but productization is

[00:33:15.24 --> 00:33:20.88] is another Beast so they they the Two

[00:33:18.80 --> 00:33:22.56] Worlds I don't think they Collide so

[00:33:20.88 --> 00:33:26.40] that's one world and that that's another

[00:33:22.56 --> 00:33:28.16] one so you're right you're right yeah

[00:33:26.40 --> 00:33:28.92] you know it's really interesting to

[00:33:28.16 --> 00:33:32.40] think

[00:33:28.92 --> 00:33:34.80] about some uh like popular products out

[00:33:32.40 --> 00:33:37.48] there I think uh like Shopify comes to

[00:33:34.80 --> 00:33:37.48] mind

[00:33:38.20 --> 00:33:42.40] where you have this ability to specify

[00:33:41.12 --> 00:33:45.24] email templates for different things

[00:33:42.40 --> 00:33:48.16] that happen order confirmation

[00:33:45.24 --> 00:33:49.80] uh uh you know when a customer uh

[00:33:48.16 --> 00:33:52.68] creates an account all this different

[00:33:49.80 --> 00:33:54.68] stuff and they've resorted and they've

[00:33:52.68 --> 00:33:57.32] had this for as long as I remember like

[00:33:54.68 --> 00:33:59.36] she first used shopy in like 200 or

[00:33:57.32 --> 00:34:00.92] something and they've been having this

[00:33:59.36 --> 00:34:03.28] since for as long as I remember where

[00:34:00.92 --> 00:34:04.84] just like paste in your HTML and put a

[00:34:03.28 --> 00:34:07.04] bunch of dynamic attributes and then

[00:34:04.84 --> 00:34:09.60] they have this whole language called uh

[00:34:07.04 --> 00:34:13.04] liquid which is like handlebars and it's

[00:34:09.60 --> 00:34:16.52] very like developer Centric on there but

[00:34:13.04 --> 00:34:17.84] I think they face so much back and forth

[00:34:16.52 --> 00:34:20.76] probably in their early years just like

[00:34:17.84 --> 00:34:22.84] you know what here's your template go

[00:34:20.76 --> 00:34:24.12] ahead put in whatever email that you'd

[00:34:22.84 --> 00:34:26.56] like and here are a few Dynamic

[00:34:24.12 --> 00:34:28.08] attributes that go in it's customizable

[00:34:26.56 --> 00:34:29.56] it's extremely customizable but I don't

[00:34:28.08 --> 00:34:31.16] think it's the friendliest thing in the

[00:34:29.56 --> 00:34:33.88] world

[00:34:31.16 --> 00:34:37.44] like like I don't I think what they've

[00:34:33.88 --> 00:34:38.92] done long-term to fix that is they went

[00:34:37.44 --> 00:34:40.88] extremely customizable extremely

[00:34:38.92 --> 00:34:42.92] configurable where it's like paste in

[00:34:40.88 --> 00:34:45.36] HTML and then what they did was they

[00:34:42.92 --> 00:34:47.28] layered templates on top of it for the

[00:34:45.36 --> 00:34:49.56] the normies as they say like the normal

[00:34:47.28 --> 00:34:52.76] users so where normal users that are

[00:34:49.56 --> 00:34:54.60] non-technical think of you know your uh

[00:34:52.76 --> 00:34:56.28] your grandma grandpa whatever trying to

[00:34:54.60 --> 00:34:58.84] start a Shopify store like the extreme

[00:34:56.28 --> 00:35:01.04] example they're not exposed to tuck they

[00:34:58.84 --> 00:35:02.80] don't understand how to use this stuff

[00:35:01.04 --> 00:35:05.44] are they going to go in and put an HTML

[00:35:02.80 --> 00:35:07.08] into a template or are they probably

[00:35:05.44 --> 00:35:07.92] going to select from existing templates

[00:35:07.08 --> 00:35:11.24] that are

[00:35:07.92 --> 00:35:14.48] there so so I think there's a nice

[00:35:11.24 --> 00:35:15.96] balance of of that you know there's a

[00:35:14.48 --> 00:35:18.28] nice balance yeah but I'm I'm just

[00:35:15.96 --> 00:35:20.28] afraid like pasting in HTML imagine the

[00:35:18.28 --> 00:35:22.60] problems they had with just people

[00:35:20.28 --> 00:35:24.68] pasting in random things they found on

[00:35:22.60 --> 00:35:26.56] the internet for Shopify templates

[00:35:24.68 --> 00:35:28.92] littered with malware and adware and

[00:35:26.56 --> 00:35:31.44]  true so I think they had a problem

[00:35:28.92 --> 00:35:34.40] with that because their name is on on

[00:35:31.44 --> 00:35:39.12] the site like Shopify powered by Shopify

[00:35:34.40 --> 00:35:42.52] so that might um give them a bad image

[00:35:39.12 --> 00:35:44.88] so I don't think it's a great idea but

[00:35:42.52 --> 00:35:47.08] you like you said like a nice balance

[00:35:44.88 --> 00:35:49.20] between the tech savvy people and the

[00:35:47.08 --> 00:35:51.36] non tech savvy people just to customize

[00:35:49.20 --> 00:35:54.04] their uh their front end uh their

[00:35:51.36 --> 00:35:58.12] storefronts yeah is is a good good way

[00:35:54.04 --> 00:36:00.64] to to handle that just a nice balance

[00:35:58.12 --> 00:36:03.20] yeah I like that approach like the more

[00:36:00.64 --> 00:36:05.08] I think about every time I encounter a

[00:36:03.20 --> 00:36:07.52] feature I'm like what's like the

[00:36:05.08 --> 00:36:10.36] extremely customizable version of

[00:36:07.52 --> 00:36:12.44] it so like now it's time to talk about

[00:36:10.36 --> 00:36:13.96] metadata on upser it's very interesting

[00:36:12.44 --> 00:36:15.28] because we've done this before the

[00:36:13.96 --> 00:36:17.60] custom field stuff and we've talked

[00:36:15.28 --> 00:36:20.48] about this multiple times

[00:36:17.60 --> 00:36:21.80] but it's like building a custom form

[00:36:20.48 --> 00:36:25.08] where it's like okay I'm going to add a

[00:36:21.80 --> 00:36:27.00] new field and this field is a number and

[00:36:25.08 --> 00:36:29.96] this field is a drop down and this field

[00:36:27.00 --> 00:36:34.56] is a name and I'm going to add these to

[00:36:29.96 --> 00:36:36.68] my customer profile right so maybe it's

[00:36:34.56 --> 00:36:38.80] easy for Mariana maybe it's easy for LA

[00:36:36.68 --> 00:36:41.48] to grasp this concept of I'm going to

[00:36:38.80 --> 00:36:43.20] add a field to a customer profile but

[00:36:41.48 --> 00:36:45.56] for like normal users that's not how

[00:36:43.20 --> 00:36:47.44] they think they're thinking

[00:36:45.56 --> 00:36:49.20] about

[00:36:47.44 --> 00:36:51.12] processes right they're thinking like

[00:36:49.20 --> 00:36:54.12] when my C they're thinking like I want

[00:36:51.12 --> 00:36:56.76] to I want my customer to put in this you

[00:36:54.12 --> 00:36:58.32] know fill out this form whatever it is

[00:36:56.76 --> 00:37:00.72] they don't they can't think I want to

[00:36:58.32 --> 00:37:02.64] add a number field to this page and drag

[00:37:00.72 --> 00:37:03.76] it to the third position like that's not

[00:37:02.64 --> 00:37:05.96] that thinking so I'm thinking the

[00:37:03.76 --> 00:37:08.12] extremely customizable version of that

[00:37:05.96 --> 00:37:10.08] feature is the ability to specify custom

[00:37:08.12 --> 00:37:11.68] fields that people like Lo people like

[00:37:10.08 --> 00:37:14.08] Marana can grasp then from our basic

[00:37:11.68 --> 00:37:16.44] users maybe we set up this concept of

[00:37:14.08 --> 00:37:17.72] form templates where it's like if you

[00:37:16.44 --> 00:37:20.88] are because they're thinking about their

[00:37:17.72 --> 00:37:23.20] business like if they're starting uh a

[00:37:20.88 --> 00:37:26.72] coffee shop maybe our form template

[00:37:23.20 --> 00:37:28.72] contains what is the the strength like

[00:37:26.72 --> 00:37:31.56] coffee strength coffee preference is it

[00:37:28.72 --> 00:37:33.96] V60 French Press espresso is it dark

[00:37:31.56 --> 00:37:35.88] roast medium roast light roast and

[00:37:33.96 --> 00:37:37.76] that's like predefine so they just go in

[00:37:35.88 --> 00:37:39.72] and they're like I am a coffee place

[00:37:37.76 --> 00:37:42.04] because that's how they think would you

[00:37:39.72 --> 00:37:45.52] like to include customer preferences for

[00:37:42.04 --> 00:37:46.72] your coffee place boom maybe then you

[00:37:45.52 --> 00:37:48.60] can add on the additional layer of

[00:37:46.72 --> 00:37:50.24] customizability to me that's like the

[00:37:48.60 --> 00:37:52.56] holy Grill of productization it's like

[00:37:50.24 --> 00:37:54.40] make it extremely flexible and then

[00:37:52.56 --> 00:37:55.80] layer on it's very similar to the shopy

[00:37:54.40 --> 00:37:56.88] example so I really want to start

[00:37:55.80 --> 00:37:59.08] thinking about this stuff as as we

[00:37:56.88 --> 00:38:01.12] develop like what's like the extreme

[00:37:59.08 --> 00:38:02.88] version cuz then think about it let's

[00:38:01.12 --> 00:38:04.28] say you do get that annoying client or

[00:38:02.88 --> 00:38:05.72] that annoying customer not annoying but

[00:38:04.28 --> 00:38:09.44] the customer that wants to get something

[00:38:05.72 --> 00:38:11.40] done and they only pay $250 a month then

[00:38:09.44 --> 00:38:14.56] you can send them to the extremely

[00:38:11.40 --> 00:38:16.44] customizable version of it and give them

[00:38:14.56 --> 00:38:21.32] the knowledge based help that they need

[00:38:16.44 --> 00:38:23.68] and just step out no developers involved

[00:38:21.32 --> 00:38:25.84] right um what are your thoughts on that

[00:38:23.68 --> 00:38:28.40] Mariana as like a product person cuz it

[00:38:25.84 --> 00:38:31.60] makes your job a lot Harder by the way

[00:38:28.40 --> 00:38:34.40] like I was going to actually there's one

[00:38:31.60 --> 00:38:37.24] word specifically that came to my mind

[00:38:34.40 --> 00:38:38.92] when you're explaining the situation

[00:38:37.24 --> 00:38:41.64] which is

[00:38:38.92 --> 00:38:45.44] consideration although it might take us

[00:38:41.64 --> 00:38:48.56] to a very human psychological

[00:38:45.44 --> 00:38:51.48] perspective of uh everything of work of

[00:38:48.56 --> 00:38:54.68] Life maybe but it's always important to

[00:38:51.48 --> 00:38:57.16] be considerate of who is this

[00:38:54.68 --> 00:39:00.68] for um because because just like you're

[00:38:57.16 --> 00:39:03.00] saying if our uh customer is not going

[00:39:00.68 --> 00:39:08.36] to be techsavvy is not going to

[00:39:03.00 --> 00:39:11.76] understand or uh G grasp the values of

[00:39:08.36 --> 00:39:13.92] more technical terminology even not very

[00:39:11.76 --> 00:39:17.08] specific technical stuff that I'm not

[00:39:13.92 --> 00:39:19.56] even used to going into deeper uh

[00:39:17.08 --> 00:39:22.48] conversations of that but rather basic

[00:39:19.56 --> 00:39:27.12] conversations of attributes to a user

[00:39:22.48 --> 00:39:29.24] which is a more Tech uh combination of

[00:39:27.12 --> 00:39:31.72] words rather than someone who from a

[00:39:29.24 --> 00:39:34.16] business perspective would know but in

[00:39:31.72 --> 00:39:36.44] this case the both project and product

[00:39:34.16 --> 00:39:39.64] manager should take into consideration

[00:39:36.44 --> 00:39:41.64] who is the end user of this product if

[00:39:39.64 --> 00:39:43.60] there's going to be an administrative

[00:39:41.64 --> 00:39:46.00] technical assistant who is going to set

[00:39:43.60 --> 00:39:50.08] that up for him uh for the business

[00:39:46.00 --> 00:39:52.36] maybe then I am willing to not go a step

[00:39:50.08 --> 00:39:55.28] further into creating the forums but

[00:39:52.36 --> 00:39:57.52] rather just transferring all the

[00:39:55.28 --> 00:40:00.84] attribute knowledge or or like more

[00:39:57.52 --> 00:40:02.88] technical type of uh resources to the

[00:40:00.84 --> 00:40:05.32] administrative assistant the technical

[00:40:02.88 --> 00:40:07.28] assistant but taking taking into

[00:40:05.32 --> 00:40:10.16] consideration just like

[00:40:07.28 --> 00:40:11.96] Shopify taking into consideration that

[00:40:10.16 --> 00:40:14.72] the person that is going to be using my

[00:40:11.96 --> 00:40:17.76] product is not so tax heavy doesn't even

[00:40:14.72 --> 00:40:20.48] need to know like I it's it's not a

[00:40:17.76 --> 00:40:24.96] requirement when starting a business to

[00:40:20.48 --> 00:40:27.88] have an uh idea of how HTML Works how

[00:40:24.96 --> 00:40:30.92] e-commerce Works how uh payment Gateway

[00:40:27.88 --> 00:40:33.80] work so that's that's definitely not a

[00:40:30.92 --> 00:40:36.04] requirement for a business right now in

[00:40:33.80 --> 00:40:38.60] this nowadays word because if Shopify

[00:40:36.04 --> 00:40:40.72] doesn't do it another e-commerce uh

[00:40:38.60 --> 00:40:44.88] platform is going to ease up the process

[00:40:40.72 --> 00:40:48.60] for them uh without requiring all the

[00:40:44.88 --> 00:40:51.08] best knowledge behind the an online Ecom

[00:40:48.60 --> 00:40:53.04] shop so in this case it's all about

[00:40:51.08 --> 00:40:55.72] consideration and it goes the other way

[00:40:53.04 --> 00:40:57.80] around as well even if I'm talking to a

[00:40:55.72 --> 00:41:00.48] customer who is a business owner and

[00:40:57.80 --> 00:41:02.60] doesn't grasp a lot of technical stuff I

[00:41:00.48 --> 00:41:05.40] need to be considerate of the tech team

[00:41:02.60 --> 00:41:06.72] behind me as well because even if the

[00:41:05.40 --> 00:41:09.76] client

[00:41:06.72 --> 00:41:13.00] is asking for something very specific

[00:41:09.76 --> 00:41:15.12] very Niche that is super vital for their

[00:41:13.00 --> 00:41:17.28] business I still need to take into

[00:41:15.12 --> 00:41:20.68] consideration if the teting behind me is

[00:41:17.28 --> 00:41:23.48] going to curse me for uh accepting they

[00:41:20.68 --> 00:41:25.32] will always curse you no matter what

[00:41:23.48 --> 00:41:28.80] yeah no I'm just kidding not us other

[00:41:25.32 --> 00:41:31.44] we're you we to that project management

[00:41:28.80 --> 00:41:34.00] managers can agree but yeah in any case

[00:41:31.44 --> 00:41:36.36] you always need to although I would say

[00:41:34.00 --> 00:41:38.68] that not having very much technical

[00:41:36.36 --> 00:41:40.92] background any type of project manager

[00:41:38.68 --> 00:41:43.08] that that that is working with technical

[00:41:40.92 --> 00:41:45.52] products should have a little bit of

[00:41:43.08 --> 00:41:47.72] understanding how Tech works not to

[00:41:45.52 --> 00:41:51.88] overpromise to the customer because

[00:41:47.72 --> 00:41:53.96] sometimes customers want uh their I

[00:41:51.88 --> 00:41:56.80] don't know phones to fly to the moon and

[00:41:53.96 --> 00:41:58.76] get back to Earth within 303 minutes

[00:41:56.80 --> 00:42:01.00] just because they want that and then the

[00:41:58.76 --> 00:42:03.28] lights flicker when the phone arrives

[00:42:01.00 --> 00:42:06.00] yeah yeah yeah but you need to

[00:42:03.28 --> 00:42:08.88] understand if that's uh feasible if it's

[00:42:06.00 --> 00:42:12.28] doable and you need to always take into

[00:42:08.88 --> 00:42:14.56] consideration even if something is uh

[00:42:12.28 --> 00:42:17.72] even if the customer is asking my my

[00:42:14.56 --> 00:42:20.48] usual uh response to a customer request

[00:42:17.72 --> 00:42:22.60] is I'll I'll need to double check with

[00:42:20.48 --> 00:42:27.04] my team and then come back to you with a

[00:42:22.60 --> 00:42:29.72] final answer my most uh most of the

[00:42:27.04 --> 00:42:31.60] cases that's how I answer or if I'm

[00:42:29.72 --> 00:42:33.68] really sure that this is something

[00:42:31.60 --> 00:42:35.56] doable because I know that I can do it

[00:42:33.68 --> 00:42:37.64] or I know that I can specifically

[00:42:35.56 --> 00:42:40.04] explain to the developer and like

[00:42:37.64 --> 00:42:42.56] developer will will not say that oh my

[00:42:40.04 --> 00:42:45.56] God what what did you agree on why did

[00:42:42.56 --> 00:42:47.60] you get us into this uh in all other

[00:42:45.56 --> 00:42:49.56] cases I usually say that I need to

[00:42:47.60 --> 00:42:51.60] double check with my team because both

[00:42:49.56 --> 00:42:53.76] in terms of visibility in terms of

[00:42:51.60 --> 00:42:56.52] timeline because specifically business

[00:42:53.76 --> 00:42:59.56] people are always in a rush to have have

[00:42:56.52 --> 00:43:01.60] everything as fast as possible want it I

[00:42:59.56 --> 00:43:03.96] want it now that's also need to be yeah

[00:43:01.60 --> 00:43:06.12] even the custom features you need to

[00:43:03.96 --> 00:43:08.36] understand that as a project manager you

[00:43:06.12 --> 00:43:12.20] may think it's an easy job to do to add

[00:43:08.36 --> 00:43:14.68] attributes age gender color I don't know

[00:43:12.20 --> 00:43:16.60] yeah gender identities stuff like that

[00:43:14.68 --> 00:43:18.32] whatever and it is easy it's just like

[00:43:16.60 --> 00:43:19.68] every developer has this like suspicion

[00:43:18.32 --> 00:43:22.24] where it's like I'm polluting the

[00:43:19.68 --> 00:43:24.80] creation when I do

[00:43:22.24 --> 00:43:28.00] this exactly yeah I just want to mention

[00:43:24.80 --> 00:43:30.24] like look at Salesforce for example like

[00:43:28.00 --> 00:43:32.92] we all is just a spreadsheet

[00:43:30.24 --> 00:43:35.96] behind an API that's what I feel like

[00:43:32.92 --> 00:43:37.96] ultimately it's a massively bloated

[00:43:35.96 --> 00:43:43.12] piece of software we can all agree on

[00:43:37.96 --> 00:43:45.88] that right I could all Salesforce uh

[00:43:43.12 --> 00:43:47.20] fans are going to cancel you guys but I

[00:43:45.88 --> 00:43:50.84] don't think there are any fans of

[00:43:47.20 --> 00:43:52.68] Salesforce nobody uses it by choice yeah

[00:43:50.84 --> 00:43:54.36] but I think you know it's funny because

[00:43:52.68 --> 00:43:56.52] it is a multi-billion dollar Corporation

[00:43:54.36 --> 00:43:58.88] so what's your response to that I just

[00:43:56.52 --> 00:44:03.44] want to say no I mean look at how they

[00:43:58.88 --> 00:44:07.60] uh when it when the product

[00:44:03.44 --> 00:44:09.48] is um not tailored but the product is

[00:44:07.60 --> 00:44:12.20] controlled by the sales team that's

[00:44:09.48 --> 00:44:15.40] selling the software look at how it ends

[00:44:12.20 --> 00:44:18.24] up okay they might sell to multiple

[00:44:15.40 --> 00:44:21.72] Enterprise uh corporations multi-million

[00:44:18.24 --> 00:44:24.12] dollar sales deals but the the core

[00:44:21.72 --> 00:44:27.92] product like when you're actually using

[00:44:24.12 --> 00:44:33.20] it it's bloated it's yeah quite frankly

[00:44:27.92 --> 00:44:35.80] bad slow overly complicated but so

[00:44:33.20 --> 00:44:38.12] yeah agreeing with Mariana just saying

[00:44:35.80 --> 00:44:39.64] that the project manager should always

[00:44:38.12 --> 00:44:41.64] be present with the sales guy when

[00:44:39.64 --> 00:44:43.84] they're selling the software that's

[00:44:41.64 --> 00:44:45.36] that's my point just I and I think in

[00:44:43.84 --> 00:44:47.64] Salesforce example maybe they were

[00:44:45.36 --> 00:44:49.28] present right let me let me push back a

[00:44:47.64 --> 00:44:52.88] little let me play's advocate for a

[00:44:49.28 --> 00:44:55.56] minute put it on my sales hat okay sales

[00:44:52.88 --> 00:44:57.12] for sells to very large Enterprises and

[00:44:55.56 --> 00:44:59.16] and some mediumsized businesses and

[00:44:57.12 --> 00:45:01.32] smaller businesses but their price point

[00:44:59.16 --> 00:45:02.84] is like medium to large essentially and

[00:45:01.32 --> 00:45:05.92] they're going down market

[00:45:02.84 --> 00:45:07.16] now and you're dealing with big like

[00:45:05.92 --> 00:45:09.36] let's say you're dealing with a Fortune

[00:45:07.16 --> 00:45:14.12] 50 company and that Fortune 50 company

[00:45:09.36 --> 00:45:16.76] is like hey I need XYZ and I pay you $5

[00:45:14.12 --> 00:45:20.36] million a year go figure it

[00:45:16.76 --> 00:45:22.20] out yep sales guy comes back like

[00:45:20.36 --> 00:45:24.08] developer has no power at that point

[00:45:22.20 --> 00:45:25.92] neither does the PM they're like you

[00:45:24.08 --> 00:45:28.56] know what you need to shut up and make

[00:45:25.92 --> 00:45:30.60] make sure the $5 million client's happy

[00:45:28.56 --> 00:45:32.32] and take that number to scale it to

[00:45:30.60 --> 00:45:34.44] whatever you see as a big number it

[00:45:32.32 --> 00:45:36.32] could be a $50,000 client for a startup

[00:45:34.44 --> 00:45:38.80] that's a big number like that that makes

[00:45:36.32 --> 00:45:40.24] that makes you know so I think what

[00:45:38.80 --> 00:45:41.60] happened logically in the Salesforce

[00:45:40.24 --> 00:45:43.72] world was you know what the engineers

[00:45:41.60 --> 00:45:45.16] went back and they're like okay they got

[00:45:43.72 --> 00:45:46.80] the first request second request third

[00:45:45.16 --> 00:45:49.36] request 10th request 20th request and

[00:45:46.80 --> 00:45:51.60] the PMs and they were like you know what

[00:45:49.36 --> 00:45:53.40] sure everything can be

[00:45:51.60 --> 00:45:55.00] customized like it's extremely

[00:45:53.40 --> 00:45:56.72] customizable to the point where if you

[00:45:55.00 --> 00:45:57.84] want to set this up on your end Mariana

[00:45:56.72 --> 00:46:00.44] or if you want to create your own

[00:45:57.84 --> 00:46:02.32] Salesforce instance you probably need a

[00:46:00.44 --> 00:46:05.40] Salesforce consultant that's gonna

[00:46:02.32 --> 00:46:07.36] charge you 100 bucks an hour to yeah

[00:46:05.40 --> 00:46:09.84] customize it and we worked with a local

[00:46:07.36 --> 00:46:10.39] company here and I like you you almost

[00:46:09.84 --> 00:46:13.00] killed

[00:46:10.39 --> 00:46:15.32] [Laughter]

[00:46:13.00 --> 00:46:17.56] yourself committed suicide live in front

[00:46:15.32 --> 00:46:20.60] of the whole team you should see the

[00:46:17.56 --> 00:46:22.12] email threats just God yeah and then

[00:46:20.60 --> 00:46:24.52] half of the was Revol resolved over

[00:46:22.12 --> 00:46:26.12] the phone right like ultimately like

[00:46:24.52 --> 00:46:27.48] they would just call you on the phone

[00:46:26.12 --> 00:46:30.92] and he would call

[00:46:27.48 --> 00:46:32.48] them so to play my devil's advocate uh

[00:46:30.92 --> 00:46:36.40] kind of position

[00:46:32.48 --> 00:46:38.56] here it makes money it serves the market

[00:46:36.40 --> 00:46:42.32] but it doesn't serve it

[00:46:38.56 --> 00:46:44.48] elegantly no no it does not is that okay

[00:46:42.32 --> 00:46:48.04] considering you know what's his name uh

[00:46:44.48 --> 00:46:50.52] what's the dude's name Mark benof is on

[00:46:48.04 --> 00:46:52.80] an island somewhere and everybody that

[00:46:50.52 --> 00:46:54.44] was involved in early Salesforce is

[00:46:52.80 --> 00:46:56.76] worth hundreds of millions of dollars

[00:46:54.44 --> 00:46:58.56] right now and I think new people as well

[00:46:56.76 --> 00:47:00.20] like they take and the new people like

[00:46:58.56 --> 00:47:02.00] everybody yeah yeah yeah takes a

[00:47:00.20 --> 00:47:04.24] commission from every sale I think of

[00:47:02.00 --> 00:47:06.84] course so like yeah how do you g success

[00:47:04.24 --> 00:47:09.64] like is that success like to the artisen

[00:47:06.84 --> 00:47:11.28] in you it's probably failure but like

[00:47:09.64 --> 00:47:14.32] yeah I think this their success metric

[00:47:11.28 --> 00:47:17.04] is how much money are we making profit

[00:47:14.32 --> 00:47:20.92] profit profit yeah so if that's the goal

[00:47:17.04 --> 00:47:25.52] then okay that's fine but uh just as a

[00:47:20.92 --> 00:47:26.28] product by itself um just an an art

[00:47:25.52 --> 00:47:28.36] piece

[00:47:26.28 --> 00:47:31.08] whatever you want to call it yeah yeah

[00:47:28.36 --> 00:47:33.60] it's it's not the way to go there's two

[00:47:31.08 --> 00:47:37.20] things I'd like to say on this specific

[00:47:33.60 --> 00:47:39.56] topic is one is again consideration

[00:47:37.20 --> 00:47:42.32] they're not they're considered only of

[00:47:39.56 --> 00:47:45.48] this very high paying customer and not

[00:47:42.32 --> 00:47:48.44] consider it of all the not so big amount

[00:47:45.48 --> 00:47:52.08] of money customers meanwhile it's going

[00:47:48.44 --> 00:47:55.12] to hurt all those others uh while trying

[00:47:52.08 --> 00:47:58.88] to satisfy the bigger one and next would

[00:47:55.12 --> 00:48:02.36] be divers ification which is if you have

[00:47:58.88 --> 00:48:05.72] been Diversified your Revenue sources

[00:48:02.36 --> 00:48:07.80] your risks which is like the highest

[00:48:05.72 --> 00:48:12.32] importance when you're trying to drive a

[00:48:07.80 --> 00:48:12.32] business to have a

[00:48:12.48 --> 00:48:19.88] a I forgot the word for it

[00:48:16.76 --> 00:48:21.80] but kind of like yeah contingency

[00:48:19.88 --> 00:48:25.92] reserve or like contingency reserve

[00:48:21.80 --> 00:48:29.32] clients or like uh plans yeah when you

[00:48:25.92 --> 00:48:32.28] can go if the $5 million deal doesn't go

[00:48:29.32 --> 00:48:36.08] well yeah because you cannot just rely

[00:48:32.28 --> 00:48:38.64] on this $5 million user which can just

[00:48:36.08 --> 00:48:41.56] go away in a year because you're unable

[00:48:38.64 --> 00:48:43.68] to fulfill all of their because maybe

[00:48:41.56 --> 00:48:46.20] they're saying that well we need all of

[00:48:43.68 --> 00:48:48.44] your teammates to come massage our CEO

[00:48:46.20 --> 00:48:52.28] every single day for 15 minutes are you

[00:48:48.44 --> 00:48:53.92] still gonna accommodate just because may

[00:48:52.28 --> 00:48:56.88] maybe that's the requirement maybe the

[00:48:53.92 --> 00:48:59.84] system can do it build an AI a robot to

[00:48:56.88 --> 00:49:03.68] go thing you need to understand that

[00:48:59.84 --> 00:49:05.40] people can go to that's to the most

[00:49:03.68 --> 00:49:07.84] contrasting

[00:49:05.40 --> 00:49:10.32] request by the way the massage thing

[00:49:07.84 --> 00:49:12.16] that's the best segue into the Middle

[00:49:10.32 --> 00:49:13.96] Eastern Market requiring a personal

[00:49:12.16 --> 00:49:18.96] touch I'm just going to skip over guys

[00:49:13.96 --> 00:49:20.28] like on the notes yeah cuz Okay me and L

[00:49:18.96 --> 00:49:21.60] I think we've spoken about this over

[00:49:20.28 --> 00:49:23.20] coffee man before I don't know if we've

[00:49:21.60 --> 00:49:26.08] ever talked about this Mariana but I

[00:49:23.20 --> 00:49:29.32] have this Theory I have this Theory

[00:49:26.08 --> 00:49:30.84] okay bear with me here and this theory

[00:49:29.32 --> 00:49:32.88] is as

[00:49:30.84 --> 00:49:34.32] follows you see how I terminated the

[00:49:32.88 --> 00:49:36.32] Salesforce conversation so we don't get

[00:49:34.32 --> 00:49:37.96] sued I'm just like let's just go to the

[00:49:36.32 --> 00:49:41.24] next

[00:49:37.96 --> 00:49:44.44] one season assist your five person

[00:49:41.24 --> 00:49:47.28] podcast um so I'm looking at Middle

[00:49:44.44 --> 00:49:49.24] Eastern startups okay I'm looking at SAS

[00:49:47.28 --> 00:49:51.24] so SAS is like a worldwide industry it's

[00:49:49.24 --> 00:49:52.92] whatever hundred billion dollar industry

[00:49:51.24 --> 00:49:55.96] and it's growing rapidly and everything

[00:49:52.92 --> 00:49:58.16] is s and nobody's building software

[00:49:55.96 --> 00:49:59.96] anymore people are just finding existing

[00:49:58.16 --> 00:50:01.92] services to do it it's 10 bucks a month

[00:49:59.96 --> 00:50:03.92] 20 bucks a month 100 bucks a month and

[00:50:01.92 --> 00:50:06.04] you get your business going and then I'm

[00:50:03.92 --> 00:50:08.60] looking at the Middle

[00:50:06.04 --> 00:50:10.56] East and I'm like hm because we tried to

[00:50:08.60 --> 00:50:12.44] build some SAU products here and we even

[00:50:10.56 --> 00:50:13.84] went as far as like going the market we

[00:50:12.44 --> 00:50:17.48] went to local restaurants we went to

[00:50:13.84 --> 00:50:19.60] people we're like okay you have a menu

[00:50:17.48 --> 00:50:21.56] you want online ordering service go

[00:50:19.60 --> 00:50:24.16] ahead and set up your

[00:50:21.56 --> 00:50:26.16] menu go ahead add your menu to the

[00:50:24.16 --> 00:50:28.00] system and then you can begin to operate

[00:50:26.16 --> 00:50:29.28] and maybe they've paid maybe they've

[00:50:28.00 --> 00:50:31.72] paid a yearly

[00:50:29.28 --> 00:50:33.28] subscription and what they do is they

[00:50:31.72 --> 00:50:36.88] pull up WhatsApp and they send you a

[00:50:33.28 --> 00:50:38.68] voice know like hey uh can you add our

[00:50:36.88 --> 00:50:39.64] producer's laughing right now I can tell

[00:50:38.68 --> 00:50:42.52] because he's the one that used to

[00:50:39.64 --> 00:50:42.52] receive some of those

[00:50:42.64 --> 00:50:47.76] requests and he's like hey can you add

[00:50:45.28 --> 00:50:49.72] this add-on to the system or can you

[00:50:47.76 --> 00:50:51.72] remove this item because I missing I'm

[00:50:49.72 --> 00:50:53.52] like bro like go in guys do it on your

[00:50:51.72 --> 00:50:56.56] own like why do you want even before

[00:50:53.52 --> 00:50:58.32] that like getting started with the menu

[00:50:56.56 --> 00:51:00.48] they just send you their physical menu

[00:50:58.32 --> 00:51:03.48] sometimes or just a picture on WhatsApp

[00:51:00.48 --> 00:51:06.12] sometimes they will send a a driver to

[00:51:03.48 --> 00:51:08.44] send you a paper menu right and be like

[00:51:06.12 --> 00:51:11.08] here's our menu now go ahead and add it

[00:51:08.44 --> 00:51:13.00] so I have this theory that the concept

[00:51:11.08 --> 00:51:16.48] of self-service

[00:51:13.00 --> 00:51:20.40] SAS is a western concept when I say

[00:51:16.48 --> 00:51:22.24] Western I mean highly developed

[00:51:20.40 --> 00:51:26.96] economies like the

[00:51:22.24 --> 00:51:28.88] us maybe even a lot of places in Europe

[00:51:26.96 --> 00:51:31.24] uh don't have the concept of

[00:51:28.88 --> 00:51:34.36] self-service SAS but self-service SAS

[00:51:31.24 --> 00:51:36.60] being uh Western maybe Eastern I

[00:51:34.36 --> 00:51:38.36] actually have no clue about like China

[00:51:36.60 --> 00:51:39.88] and and that world but what I do know is

[00:51:38.36 --> 00:51:42.24] that in the US it's normal for people to

[00:51:39.88 --> 00:51:44.68] go in and buy a $50 service and

[00:51:42.24 --> 00:51:47.12] configure it configure it and spend days

[00:51:44.68 --> 00:51:48.84] or weeks configuring it on their own on

[00:51:47.12 --> 00:51:53.28] their own time just so they can get what

[00:51:48.84 --> 00:51:54.96] they want and then scale it so in the

[00:51:53.28 --> 00:51:56.80] Middle East I've never seen that before

[00:51:54.96 --> 00:51:57.72] prove me wrong are there any startups

[00:51:56.80 --> 00:51:59.68] that I don't know about that are

[00:51:57.72 --> 00:52:03.16] charging 10 20 bucks a month with no

[00:51:59.68 --> 00:52:05.80] high touch sales and high touch customer

[00:52:03.16 --> 00:52:07.32] success does this actually exist and I

[00:52:05.80 --> 00:52:09.64] would love to hear your perspective too

[00:52:07.32 --> 00:52:12.24] Marana on uh kind of Armenian culture

[00:52:09.64 --> 00:52:16.36] and how that works like is it here's a

[00:52:12.24 --> 00:52:19.00] voice note you work for me now or is it

[00:52:16.36 --> 00:52:20.56] uh uh do they actually like take on

[00:52:19.00 --> 00:52:22.72] their own responsibility and build the

[00:52:20.56 --> 00:52:25.80] stuff and and and do

[00:52:22.72 --> 00:52:27.72] it yeah it's interesting to know

[00:52:25.80 --> 00:52:30.28] no I'm I'm I was agreeing with what El

[00:52:27.72 --> 00:52:32.60] like I don't think like on the top of my

[00:52:30.28 --> 00:52:36.20] head I don't ever I didn't ever work

[00:52:32.60 --> 00:52:39.20] with like a or just see a product like

[00:52:36.20 --> 00:52:40.92] that yeah like a 20 Buck like $20 a

[00:52:39.20 --> 00:52:43.80] month

[00:52:40.92 --> 00:52:45.64] CRM no no that doesn't exist I don't

[00:52:43.80 --> 00:52:48.48] think

[00:52:45.64 --> 00:52:51.92] so uh my experience everything here is

[00:52:48.48 --> 00:52:53.76] like B2B that's everything is B2B yeah

[00:52:51.92 --> 00:52:56.24] highly like high sales touch B2B like I

[00:52:53.76 --> 00:52:58.16] am coming to see you B2B like not even

[00:52:56.24 --> 00:53:02.16] like I'm going to call you

[00:52:58.16 --> 00:53:04.44] on sign yeah yeah it's not even B to be

[00:53:02.16 --> 00:53:07.80] it's like person to person like it's

[00:53:04.44 --> 00:53:09.44] just me and you here yeah yeah yeah so

[00:53:07.80 --> 00:53:11.72] let's have lunch and dinner and get to

[00:53:09.44 --> 00:53:14.80] know each other before we can I heard

[00:53:11.72 --> 00:53:16.40] that's big in like in UAE Saudi like

[00:53:14.80 --> 00:53:18.60] like we really need to have a big

[00:53:16.40 --> 00:53:20.24] relationship of trust before we can even

[00:53:18.60 --> 00:53:22.76] begin to talk business and then

[00:53:20.24 --> 00:53:26.92] everything else just flows which I tend

[00:53:22.76 --> 00:53:29.92] to like but I don't because it doesn't

[00:53:26.92 --> 00:53:32.04] scale you know no it does not it does

[00:53:29.92 --> 00:53:36.00] not yeah unless you're dealing with

[00:53:32.04 --> 00:53:39.76] Enterprise like money Salesforce deals

[00:53:36.00 --> 00:53:42.52] yeah like yeah big deals uh okay it

[00:53:39.76 --> 00:53:45.64] might scale but if you're doing like the

[00:53:42.52 --> 00:53:48.24] 200 a month 100 a month product yeah

[00:53:45.64 --> 00:53:50.20] that that cannot work you're just gonna

[00:53:48.24 --> 00:53:53.28] end up dead like your company is going

[00:53:50.20 --> 00:53:57.36] to die eventually if you stay that way

[00:53:53.28 --> 00:53:59.36] and just be um in to all these clients

[00:53:57.36 --> 00:54:01.68] taking them out to lunch or whatever

[00:53:59.36 --> 00:54:05.36] yeah that's not that doesn't work like

[00:54:01.68 --> 00:54:08.48] how many lunches can you do a day yeah I

[00:54:05.36 --> 00:54:11.00] would actually say it's very similar uh

[00:54:08.48 --> 00:54:13.84] in Armenia but I wouldn't say the same

[00:54:11.00 --> 00:54:17.80] as relevant for Georgia which is our

[00:54:13.84 --> 00:54:21.24] neighboring country and we have a lot of

[00:54:17.80 --> 00:54:24.36] similarities in terms of culture

[00:54:21.24 --> 00:54:26.96] but uh in terms of this type of business

[00:54:24.36 --> 00:54:29.76] culture where much more similar to

[00:54:26.96 --> 00:54:32.12] Middle East because we value personal

[00:54:29.76 --> 00:54:35.48] connections over anything else over

[00:54:32.12 --> 00:54:38.84] contract processes nothing matters if

[00:54:35.48 --> 00:54:43.44] we're not sitting around a coffee

[00:54:38.84 --> 00:54:46.36] table because I think that's um again I

[00:54:43.44 --> 00:54:50.52] do agree and disagree with this approach

[00:54:46.36 --> 00:54:52.80] just like you because I agree because it

[00:54:50.52 --> 00:54:54.24] g gives you the Personal Touch in a

[00:54:52.80 --> 00:54:58.88] sense that you're not just doing

[00:54:54.24 --> 00:55:00.36] business it's also partnership yeah it

[00:54:58.88 --> 00:55:03.32] also becomes a partnership you're

[00:55:00.36 --> 00:55:05.68] friends with your clients but it's

[00:55:03.32 --> 00:55:08.28] difficult to say no to a friend at some

[00:55:05.68 --> 00:55:10.04] point because when you're doing business

[00:55:08.28 --> 00:55:11.84] and at some point you need to say no to

[00:55:10.04 --> 00:55:14.48] your clients as well because you may not

[00:55:11.84 --> 00:55:16.28] be able to scale you may not be able to

[00:55:14.48 --> 00:55:18.00] accommodate everything that your client

[00:55:16.28 --> 00:55:21.36] is saying just like I said like you may

[00:55:18.00 --> 00:55:24.20] not be able to go uh massage your

[00:55:21.36 --> 00:55:27.12] clients every time they ask for it but

[00:55:24.20 --> 00:55:29.80] you need to know the limits to saying no

[00:55:27.12 --> 00:55:31.80] as well which is a lot diffic a lot more

[00:55:29.80 --> 00:55:34.40] difficult when you have very personal

[00:55:31.80 --> 00:55:36.84] connections to the client and in this

[00:55:34.40 --> 00:55:40.24] case the customization issue coming back

[00:55:36.84 --> 00:55:42.56] to our topic is becoming a very

[00:55:40.24 --> 00:55:44.64] difficult thing to handle because just

[00:55:42.56 --> 00:55:48.84] because you have been having lunch every

[00:55:44.64 --> 00:55:51.60] Sunday you're feeling obligated to yeah

[00:55:48.84 --> 00:55:56.04] uh accommodate every single request that

[00:55:51.60 --> 00:55:58.96] they're doing and in this case

[00:55:56.04 --> 00:56:02.68] um the Western approach to doing

[00:55:58.96 --> 00:56:06.72] business to doing SAS to doing service

[00:56:02.68 --> 00:56:12.00] based uh part partnership business but

[00:56:06.72 --> 00:56:14.24] is much more uh technical concrete yeah

[00:56:12.00 --> 00:56:16.04] you know what to expect you know what

[00:56:14.24 --> 00:56:19.76] you're going to get

[00:56:16.04 --> 00:56:23.28] yeah um it it's it sounds bad but you

[00:56:19.76 --> 00:56:25.24] know you can take this uh papers to the

[00:56:23.28 --> 00:56:27.76] court someday if you need to there's

[00:56:25.24 --> 00:56:29.92] High trust in the system there yeah yeah

[00:56:27.76 --> 00:56:32.36] there's High trust you won't be able to

[00:56:29.92 --> 00:56:34.28] take into court if there's any type of

[00:56:32.36 --> 00:56:38.00] issue or conflict because you need to

[00:56:34.28 --> 00:56:40.68] solve it on a personal level at which is

[00:56:38.00 --> 00:56:42.60] definitely not productive not efficient

[00:56:40.68 --> 00:56:45.16] always feelings are

[00:56:42.60 --> 00:56:48.08] hurt yeah yeah it's interesting we have

[00:56:45.16 --> 00:56:50.48] a client great guy uh like very relevant

[00:56:48.08 --> 00:56:52.40] story uh he visited us here before

[00:56:50.48 --> 00:56:54.96] signing the deal he stayed here for two

[00:56:52.40 --> 00:56:57.16] nights we went out to dinner twice we uh

[00:56:54.96 --> 00:56:59.52] got to know each other we're not talking

[00:56:57.16 --> 00:57:02.00] a million dollar deal we're talking you

[00:56:59.52 --> 00:57:04.52] know like hundreds of dollars a month

[00:57:02.00 --> 00:57:06.24] that's it but it's a commitment to him

[00:57:04.52 --> 00:57:08.40] it's it's the most important part of the

[00:57:06.24 --> 00:57:10.88] business and this guy came out and I was

[00:57:08.40 --> 00:57:12.48] even like because I've I've kind of like

[00:57:10.88 --> 00:57:14.64] lived a lot in the west so I was a bit

[00:57:12.48 --> 00:57:16.68] sketched out I remember telling the like

[00:57:14.64 --> 00:57:18.32] I'm like I'm sketched out like why would

[00:57:16.68 --> 00:57:21.56] you visit over you know 900 bucks a

[00:57:18.32 --> 00:57:23.80] month like is it worth your while your

[00:57:21.56 --> 00:57:25.00] flight came to the office we had a

[00:57:23.80 --> 00:57:26.28] discussion of the same stuff we

[00:57:25.00 --> 00:57:28.60] discussed on the

[00:57:26.28 --> 00:57:31.08] cause so I was like what's next you know

[00:57:28.60 --> 00:57:33.88] is it like what is this a heist a

[00:57:31.08 --> 00:57:35.68] kidnapping but no it turns out great guy

[00:57:33.88 --> 00:57:37.60] and it's interesting we built a personal

[00:57:35.68 --> 00:57:40.72] relationship good dude building a

[00:57:37.60 --> 00:57:42.56] business an aggregator he's in

[00:57:40.72 --> 00:57:47.12] Lebanon in the

[00:57:42.56 --> 00:57:49.08] South which due to the recent events uh

[00:57:47.12 --> 00:57:50.56] there is a war in the south of Lebanon

[00:57:49.08 --> 00:57:52.08] technically right so there's a lot of

[00:57:50.56 --> 00:57:54.32] instability so he sent me a message he's

[00:57:52.08 --> 00:57:56.16] like look we're going on pause and

[00:57:54.32 --> 00:57:58.32] because we have a relationship he has a

[00:57:56.16 --> 00:58:00.88] 5-year contract with us so can you

[00:57:58.32 --> 00:58:03.72] imagine that he has a 5year commitment

[00:58:00.88 --> 00:58:05.60] that he wanted because he wanted to make

[00:58:03.72 --> 00:58:07.36] sure we don't disappear after three or

[00:58:05.60 --> 00:58:08.80] four or five years because we have that

[00:58:07.36 --> 00:58:10.00] personal relationship I was like all

[00:58:08.80 --> 00:58:11.20] right you're on pause and every month

[00:58:10.00 --> 00:58:12.44] the accountant asks me because she

[00:58:11.20 --> 00:58:15.52] doesn't know what's going on in the

[00:58:12.44 --> 00:58:17.84] region she's like you know do we invoice

[00:58:15.52 --> 00:58:19.28] him I'm like no no like we're on pause

[00:58:17.84 --> 00:58:21.56] but I think in a different situation

[00:58:19.28 --> 00:58:23.84] where it was just like somebody in our

[00:58:21.56 --> 00:58:26.24] database I probably would have just like

[00:58:23.84 --> 00:58:27.32] let the system send the invoice but in

[00:58:26.24 --> 00:58:29.60] this case we're like you know what no

[00:58:27.32 --> 00:58:33.28] we're pause stay safe for as long as you

[00:58:29.60 --> 00:58:35.64] need until everything ends hopefully

[00:58:33.28 --> 00:58:37.56] safely we can continue at your own pace

[00:58:35.64 --> 00:58:39.80] and we'll just add these to the end of

[00:58:37.56 --> 00:58:41.40] your contract so I think that's there's

[00:58:39.80 --> 00:58:44.32] a big value to personal relationship in

[00:58:41.40 --> 00:58:46.56] that respect where if the unexpected

[00:58:44.32 --> 00:58:49.08] happens like I think we'll be working

[00:58:46.56 --> 00:58:50.44] together for a very long time because of

[00:58:49.08 --> 00:58:52.64] the immense Goodwill that we've built

[00:58:50.44 --> 00:58:55.60] assuming the business keeps going so it

[00:58:52.64 --> 00:58:57.16] is more like a partnership which I like

[00:58:55.60 --> 00:58:58.88] I almost think like it's worse for

[00:58:57.16 --> 00:59:01.04] acquisition but better for retention if

[00:58:58.88 --> 00:59:02.44] I'm going to be technical about it like

[00:59:01.04 --> 00:59:04.56] the the the personal relationship is

[00:59:02.44 --> 00:59:06.68] very good for retention very bad for

[00:59:04.56 --> 00:59:08.92] bringing on new people not bad but like

[00:59:06.68 --> 00:59:11.72] difficult but eventually eventually I

[00:59:08.92 --> 00:59:14.40] think you you need to prioritize

[00:59:11.72 --> 00:59:16.08] retention right eventually every

[00:59:14.40 --> 00:59:20.44] business just built on retention man you

[00:59:16.08 --> 00:59:22.28] know it% yeah yeah so I think maybe like

[00:59:20.44 --> 00:59:23.60] you know our cultures here have skipped

[00:59:22.28 --> 00:59:25.80] the first step and they're just like you

[00:59:23.60 --> 00:59:27.16] know what this what we used to do 20,000

[00:59:25.80 --> 00:59:28.12] years ago so we're going to continue to

[00:59:27.16 --> 00:59:31.32] do the

[00:59:28.12 --> 00:59:33.24] same yeah whereas in the like we we leap

[00:59:31.32 --> 00:59:36.68] frogged maybe I don't know maybe it's a

[00:59:33.24 --> 00:59:38.76] good thing I'd actually like to also uh

[00:59:36.68 --> 00:59:42.44] give an example of my own experience as

[00:59:38.76 --> 00:59:45.52] well where a personal touch

[00:59:42.44 --> 00:59:48.52] uh makes me still stick to the product

[00:59:45.52 --> 00:59:51.76] even if I do not need it at one day or

[00:59:48.52 --> 00:59:54.08] if the product itself gets on my nerves

[00:59:51.76 --> 00:59:56.24] sometimes but just because I have

[00:59:54.08 --> 00:59:59.04] received a person person touch from the

[00:59:56.24 --> 01:00:02.08] CEO specifically I would name the

[00:59:59.04 --> 01:00:06.04] product which is tltv uh which is a call

[01:00:02.08 --> 01:00:09.96] recording uh service shout out to

[01:00:06.04 --> 01:00:12.56] TBD the guy does a funny Instagram reals

[01:00:09.96 --> 01:00:15.20] yeah that's they have good marketing

[01:00:12.56 --> 01:00:19.12] it's a good product too yeah it's

[01:00:15.20 --> 01:00:23.12] basically I have accidentally created a

[01:00:19.12 --> 01:00:25.40] a profile with uh another personal email

[01:00:23.12 --> 01:00:27.84] then I realized that it's my email not

[01:00:25.40 --> 01:00:31.48] the work one I instantly deleted not to

[01:00:27.84 --> 01:00:33.36] have the uh duplicate uh meeting

[01:00:31.48 --> 01:00:36.04] recordings and everything and I received

[01:00:33.36 --> 01:00:38.36] a message on uh hey I wanted to check

[01:00:36.04 --> 01:00:39.56] out why did you delete your account if

[01:00:38.36 --> 01:00:41.60] there was any issue with it and

[01:00:39.56 --> 01:00:43.28] everything it was definitely an

[01:00:41.60 --> 01:00:45.48] automated message but it was so

[01:00:43.28 --> 01:00:48.08] personalized I was so touched by it that

[01:00:45.48 --> 01:00:50.36] I responded to it and I I never respond

[01:00:48.08 --> 01:00:52.56] to any emails from any type of product

[01:00:50.36 --> 01:00:54.28] and everything I responded to the email

[01:00:52.56 --> 01:00:56.76] explaining the situation because I

[01:00:54.28 --> 01:00:58.44] thought thought that the amount of

[01:00:56.76 --> 01:01:00.40] effort that these people put on this

[01:00:58.44 --> 01:01:03.52] automated message this was definitely

[01:01:00.40 --> 01:01:07.32] worth answering I answered that I know

[01:01:03.52 --> 01:01:09.44] this is not a human generated uh email

[01:01:07.32 --> 01:01:11.08] it's an automated email but thank you

[01:01:09.44 --> 01:01:14.00] very much this is the case and then the

[01:01:11.08 --> 01:01:17.56] CEO replied to me that hey there that

[01:01:14.00 --> 01:01:19.76] was indeed an automated EMA uh email but

[01:01:17.56 --> 01:01:23.28] this is me actually answering all of the

[01:01:19.76 --> 01:01:25.88] emails so even if they are a western

[01:01:23.28 --> 01:01:29.88] company and they are technically not

[01:01:25.88 --> 01:01:31.80] working on building Partnerships uh clo

[01:01:29.88 --> 01:01:34.84] very close relationships and everything

[01:01:31.80 --> 01:01:37.96] they are a very automated onboarding

[01:01:34.84 --> 01:01:40.16] system they still did keep the touch the

[01:01:37.96 --> 01:01:42.88] Personal Touch so I would say still

[01:01:40.16 --> 01:01:44.92] getting to our initial point of

[01:01:42.88 --> 01:01:47.56] productization and

[01:01:44.92 --> 01:01:52.12] customization that you need to customize

[01:01:47.56 --> 01:01:54.16] only based on your Market data research

[01:01:52.12 --> 01:01:55.32] understanding and consideration of your

[01:01:54.16 --> 01:01:57.48] client

[01:01:55.32 --> 01:01:59.24] but still need to take into account your

[01:01:57.48 --> 01:02:01.84] product first because the product is

[01:01:59.24 --> 01:02:04.60] going to be keeping you the lights on

[01:02:01.84 --> 01:02:07.68] the bills paid and everything and you

[01:02:04.60 --> 01:02:09.44] still need the Personal Touch because if

[01:02:07.68 --> 01:02:11.80] the Personal Touch doesn't exist you

[01:02:09.44 --> 01:02:13.40] don't know at which range of the

[01:02:11.80 --> 01:02:16.40] customization you should go should you

[01:02:13.40 --> 01:02:18.20] customize until you die or should you

[01:02:16.40 --> 01:02:21.28] not customize at all so This Personal

[01:02:18.20 --> 01:02:22.96] Touch gets a direction of where are you

[01:02:21.28 --> 01:02:25.44] heading in terms of your product and

[01:02:22.96 --> 01:02:26.84] customization well said I think like if

[01:02:25.44 --> 01:02:29.72] you stick on the if I were if I'm

[01:02:26.84 --> 01:02:31.80] building for the the world let's say

[01:02:29.72 --> 01:02:37.08] like the Middle East especially I'm

[01:02:31.80 --> 01:02:37.08] building things in the extreme form of

[01:02:37.20 --> 01:02:40.96] customizable like product customizable

[01:02:39.36 --> 01:02:43.24] not developer customizable like we're

[01:02:40.96 --> 01:02:45.88] not customizing from scratch for each

[01:02:43.24 --> 01:02:47.56] $50 account but we do have a

[01:02:45.88 --> 01:02:50.56] customizable product or maybe like the

[01:02:47.56 --> 01:02:51.96] HTML example on Shopify the custom form

[01:02:50.56 --> 01:02:54.96] and then I

[01:02:51.96 --> 01:02:57.24] am building personal relationships

[01:02:54.96 --> 01:02:58.68] and having people be able to use that

[01:02:57.24 --> 01:03:01.68] product in a way where it's and that's

[01:02:58.68 --> 01:03:03.12] the only way I think to scale it um I

[01:03:01.68 --> 01:03:06.68] don't know which models right and wrong

[01:03:03.12 --> 01:03:08.48] but I I I really like what you said also

[01:03:06.68 --> 01:03:09.92] and that real example Mar of like it's

[01:03:08.48 --> 01:03:12.64] retention

[01:03:09.92 --> 01:03:15.52] oriented like this approach if you have

[01:03:12.64 --> 01:03:18.96] a personal relationship is high on

[01:03:15.52 --> 01:03:21.44] retention uh tough on acquiring like

[01:03:18.96 --> 01:03:24.72] that to me is is a fabulous Insight that

[01:03:21.44 --> 01:03:26.52] I'm not going to forget after this so

[01:03:24.72 --> 01:03:29.68] I'm curious last thing I want to hit on

[01:03:26.52 --> 01:03:31.16] yes and this is a question for you di as

[01:03:29.68 --> 01:03:33.36] developers do you think we're out of a

[01:03:31.16 --> 01:03:34.68] job soon and let me elaborate of course

[01:03:33.36 --> 01:03:37.20] not as

[01:03:34.68 --> 01:03:39.92] developers it almost feels like

[01:03:37.20 --> 01:03:42.16] sometimes I'm coding I'm like hm I can

[01:03:39.92 --> 01:03:43.64] make this configurable I'm I'm like hm I

[01:03:42.16 --> 01:03:45.48] could make this configurable then it

[01:03:43.64 --> 01:03:48.04] always ends up being hm I can let people

[01:03:45.48 --> 01:03:51.40] build their own little table or

[01:03:48.04 --> 01:03:53.36] database like hm I can let them drag and

[01:03:51.40 --> 01:03:55.68] drop different elements on the UI and it

[01:03:53.36 --> 01:03:57.48] always all like rolls up it keeps going

[01:03:55.68 --> 01:03:59.72] going going going going and then it ends

[01:03:57.48 --> 01:04:02.76] up in like a no

[01:03:59.72 --> 01:04:04.84] code world something like web flow or

[01:04:02.76 --> 01:04:07.04] like some of these no code tools that we

[01:04:04.84 --> 01:04:08.92] have but eventually like you said you

[01:04:07.04 --> 01:04:10.84] answered your own question like you say

[01:04:08.92 --> 01:04:12.24] I can make it I can make like you are

[01:04:10.84 --> 01:04:14.16] the Builder here you're building these

[01:04:12.24 --> 01:04:15.60] things right eventually if you reach the

[01:04:14.16 --> 01:04:17.48] top someone is going to have to build

[01:04:15.60 --> 01:04:18.56] something eventually so I don't think

[01:04:17.48 --> 01:04:20.92] somebody's going have to build something

[01:04:18.56 --> 01:04:23.68] so should we really be building that

[01:04:20.92 --> 01:04:25.84] like like should we be thinking of okay

[01:04:23.68 --> 01:04:27.40] everything every single stupid crud app

[01:04:25.84 --> 01:04:28.64] which is every other app in the world

[01:04:27.40 --> 01:04:30.72] let's you're not building the next chat

[01:04:28.64 --> 01:04:34.24] GPT but let's say You're Building the

[01:04:30.72 --> 01:04:36.68] 99% of apps is that always just gonna in

[01:04:34.24 --> 01:04:37.80] five years roll up into a no code tool

[01:04:36.68 --> 01:04:40.44] because I'm doing dude the other day I

[01:04:37.80 --> 01:04:42.48] was on webflow and I was like um I have

[01:04:40.44 --> 01:04:44.52] a task that you created Marana which is

[01:04:42.48 --> 01:04:46.96] the lead

[01:04:44.52 --> 01:04:50.04] flow and I was like we already built an

[01:04:46.96 --> 01:04:51.76] app for the leads to receive them and

[01:04:50.04 --> 01:04:53.08] process the payment and do some stuff we

[01:04:51.76 --> 01:04:55.92] built at wild black it needs some work

[01:04:53.08 --> 01:04:57.12] it needs probably a week of work mhm but

[01:04:55.92 --> 01:04:58.24] then I was like hm you know what I'm

[01:04:57.12 --> 01:05:00.12] just going to do this on web flow right

[01:04:58.24 --> 01:05:01.36] now I'm going to put in the tables the

[01:05:00.12 --> 01:05:03.28] pricing tables I'm going to embed those

[01:05:01.36 --> 01:05:05.24] from stripe and I was able to work out

[01:05:03.28 --> 01:05:07.28] the whole flow on webflow and I was like

[01:05:05.24 --> 01:05:09.28] the only thing that I need to do to make

[01:05:07.28 --> 01:05:11.44] this complete is to

[01:05:09.28 --> 01:05:13.16] say we're going to receive a web Hook

[01:05:11.44 --> 01:05:16.52] from stripe and then invite the person

[01:05:13.16 --> 01:05:18.20] to use their account so and the reason I

[01:05:16.52 --> 01:05:19.88] wanted to do web flow is not because I I

[01:05:18.20 --> 01:05:21.72] can code but I was like you know what

[01:05:19.88 --> 01:05:23.16] the developers are busy they're building

[01:05:21.72 --> 01:05:26.00] product like I'm not going to disrupt

[01:05:23.16 --> 01:05:27.00] his flow like let him do his thing and

[01:05:26.00 --> 01:05:28.20] we're just going to let the marketing

[01:05:27.00 --> 01:05:29.68] team control this piece because the

[01:05:28.20 --> 01:05:31.00] marketing team is going to keep asking

[01:05:29.68 --> 01:05:33.00] for constantly they're going to be

[01:05:31.00 --> 01:05:35.16] like can we make it a twostep process

[01:05:33.00 --> 01:05:37.80] instead of a three-step process and it's

[01:05:35.16 --> 01:05:40.00] GNA get like the are they're bound to

[01:05:37.80 --> 01:05:41.84] get annoyed so I'm like you know what no

[01:05:40.00 --> 01:05:43.76] like we're going to empower the the the

[01:05:41.84 --> 01:05:47.48] marketing team let them make their own

[01:05:43.76 --> 01:05:49.24] changes easily leave Tech out of it so

[01:05:47.48 --> 01:05:51.76] I'm just like this is a a thought I've

[01:05:49.24 --> 01:05:53.32] had is you know what does it look like

[01:05:51.76 --> 01:05:55.20] in five years codewise is it all going

[01:05:53.32 --> 01:05:58.12] to roll up into extremely customizable

[01:05:55.20 --> 01:05:59.68] clickup and web flows and no code and

[01:05:58.12 --> 01:06:03.00] should we just quit what we're doing and

[01:05:59.68 --> 01:06:04.00] just go to sleep no no so I think yeah

[01:06:03.00 --> 01:06:07.12] it's going

[01:06:04.00 --> 01:06:10.40] to I think eventually like the Noco

[01:06:07.12 --> 01:06:13.12] tools are a huge huge uh success

[01:06:10.40 --> 01:06:14.60] obviously and they are the future and

[01:06:13.12 --> 01:06:18.32] they are right now gaining a lot of

[01:06:14.60 --> 01:06:20.92] popularity but eventually when a company

[01:06:18.32 --> 01:06:23.00] or someone is customizing something for

[01:06:20.92 --> 01:06:24.68] their needs using no code

[01:06:23.00 --> 01:06:26.44] tools

[01:06:24.68 --> 01:06:29.64] um most of the time eventually they

[01:06:26.44 --> 01:06:32.08] reach a point where it stops working for

[01:06:29.64 --> 01:06:34.88] them they need to actually get down in

[01:06:32.08 --> 01:06:36.60] the the mud and write some code or hire

[01:06:34.88 --> 01:06:38.32] a developer to write some code for them

[01:06:36.60 --> 01:06:41.00] to to change something to customize

[01:06:38.32 --> 01:06:44.20] something because these products are

[01:06:41.00 --> 01:06:46.28] companies too and they have uh limits

[01:06:44.20 --> 01:06:49.48] yeah like like they have limits on the

[01:06:46.28 --> 01:06:51.88] product like you can't do this you can

[01:06:49.48 --> 01:06:54.44] do you can do this maybe X number of

[01:06:51.88 --> 01:06:55.92] times whatever right they have limits So

[01:06:54.44 --> 01:07:00.48] eventually some company somewhere is

[01:06:55.92 --> 01:07:01.84] going to reach those limits but um maybe

[01:07:00.48 --> 01:07:04.48] the no Cod tool will have like a

[01:07:01.84 --> 01:07:08.28] customization option where you can write

[01:07:04.48 --> 01:07:10.04] code but uh they don't know how to write

[01:07:08.28 --> 01:07:11.76] code the the customer that's using that

[01:07:10.04 --> 01:07:13.56] that no code tool So eventually they're

[01:07:11.76 --> 01:07:17.08] going to hire a developer or

[01:07:13.56 --> 01:07:19.64] learn um to do that themselves so no

[01:07:17.08 --> 01:07:22.28] we're not putting ourselves out of a job

[01:07:19.64 --> 01:07:24.60] making our jobs more efficient EAS

[01:07:22.28 --> 01:07:26.76] effici okay more efficient because we

[01:07:24.60 --> 01:07:29.52] can focus on the bigger picture the the

[01:07:26.76 --> 01:07:31.72] nice stuff the more complicated stuff so

[01:07:29.52 --> 01:07:35.16] let's just take an example of History so

[01:07:31.72 --> 01:07:37.80] back that back in the day in the 60s 70s

[01:07:35.16 --> 01:07:40.04] people used to write machine code on a

[01:07:37.80 --> 01:07:42.84] piece of paper like with Right Punch

[01:07:40.04 --> 01:07:44.40] Cards yeah the Punch Cards exactly yeah

[01:07:42.84 --> 01:07:46.44] and feed it into the machine and the

[01:07:44.40 --> 01:07:49.32] Machine would print out an output and

[01:07:46.44 --> 01:07:53.24] like all of that eventually someone

[01:07:49.32 --> 01:07:54.68] wrote a compiler that compiles like

[01:07:53.24 --> 01:07:57.92] human readability

[01:07:54.68 --> 01:08:00.76] H like assembly code into the punch card

[01:07:57.92 --> 01:08:02.72] code right uh and people used to say

[01:08:00.76 --> 01:08:05.04] back then oh you're putting developers

[01:08:02.72 --> 01:08:07.60] out of a job but actually what people

[01:08:05.04 --> 01:08:10.60] realized is those the same 10 developers

[01:08:07.60 --> 01:08:14.20] that were punching in the cards now are

[01:08:10.60 --> 01:08:15.88] just writing uh assembly code then we

[01:08:14.20 --> 01:08:18.04] didn't increase the amount of developers

[01:08:15.88 --> 01:08:20.08] actually we even hired more because

[01:08:18.04 --> 01:08:23.32] things got even more complex you can do

[01:08:20.08 --> 01:08:25.84] more complex things you can write uh

[01:08:23.32 --> 01:08:28.72] better PR s the needs of the accounting

[01:08:25.84 --> 01:08:30.68] teams even grew even more so right no I

[01:08:28.72 --> 01:08:32.52] don't think we're going to you can

[01:08:30.68 --> 01:08:34.72] follow the same analogy we're not

[01:08:32.52 --> 01:08:36.28] fighting it we're embracing it we're

[01:08:34.72 --> 01:08:38.84] embracing it we're actually building it

[01:08:36.28 --> 01:08:40.44] we're helping it because this helps us

[01:08:38.84 --> 01:08:42.48] like focus on the bigger stuff like the

[01:08:40.44 --> 01:08:45.60] nicer stuff instead of writing CR apps

[01:08:42.48 --> 01:08:47.92] all day not writing every every month

[01:08:45.60 --> 01:08:50.84] exactly exactly so yeah I'm with the no

[01:08:47.92 --> 01:08:53.40] code thing because it helps us like um

[01:08:50.84 --> 01:08:55.20] get rid of that uh part of coding you

[01:08:53.40 --> 01:08:57.68] know the boring

[01:08:55.20 --> 01:09:02.76] Parts there's one thing that I would

[01:08:57.68 --> 01:09:06.92] like to add yeah to L's uh answer is

[01:09:02.76 --> 01:09:09.76] that from economics perspective as uh

[01:09:06.92 --> 01:09:14.24] I've learned economics uh as I've

[01:09:09.76 --> 01:09:16.24] studied economics in my bachelor's um

[01:09:14.24 --> 01:09:18.84] the the main theory is that everything

[01:09:16.24 --> 01:09:21.40] is cyclical but in development

[01:09:18.84 --> 01:09:27.76] specifically and in products

[01:09:21.40 --> 01:09:31.52] specifically the C IAL uh growth is also

[01:09:27.76 --> 01:09:34.12] um in some sense growing in uh into a

[01:09:31.52 --> 01:09:37.16] higher needs so

[01:09:34.12 --> 01:09:39.20] like uh it's going to be difficult to

[01:09:37.16 --> 01:09:40.80] explain what my mind mind is going

[01:09:39.20 --> 01:09:43.08] through right now but what I'm thinking

[01:09:40.80 --> 01:09:45.64] is although we are going back to the

[01:09:43.08 --> 01:09:48.28] same needs in terms of development

[01:09:45.64 --> 01:09:51.36] custom codes and everything they they

[01:09:48.28 --> 01:09:53.36] are not the same needs as 10 years ago

[01:09:51.36 --> 01:09:57.80] but those are more complicated needs so

[01:09:53.36 --> 01:10:02.08] this uh cyclical trend is not constant

[01:09:57.80 --> 01:10:05.08] uh into in it's not

[01:10:02.08 --> 01:10:08.92] cycling within a constant but it's

[01:10:05.08 --> 01:10:11.44] cycling through an increasing number so

[01:10:08.92 --> 01:10:13.68] this needs are cyclical and increasing

[01:10:11.44 --> 01:10:17.36] in terms of the functionality although

[01:10:13.68 --> 01:10:21.20] the custom code is still getting back

[01:10:17.36 --> 01:10:25.80] into uh the demand the need for the

[01:10:21.20 --> 01:10:27.88] higher quality codes is uh inside into

[01:10:25.80 --> 01:10:30.76] into the market rather than the zeros

[01:10:27.88 --> 01:10:31.76] and ones that was previously the case

[01:10:30.76 --> 01:10:35.08] it's kind of like when they say

[01:10:31.76 --> 01:10:36.16] automation is taking over and you know

[01:10:35.08 --> 01:10:37.64] you're not going to have any truck

[01:10:36.16 --> 01:10:38.80] drivers for example because you're going

[01:10:37.64 --> 01:10:41.20] to have automated trucks but then

[01:10:38.80 --> 01:10:42.68] they're like that part of the economy

[01:10:41.20 --> 01:10:44.84] will retrain to things that are more

[01:10:42.68 --> 01:10:47.96] important to us as a civilization like

[01:10:44.84 --> 01:10:50.88] caring for the sick and you know like

[01:10:47.96 --> 01:10:55.64] that kind the stuff that cannot be

[01:10:50.88 --> 01:10:57.72] automated yeah but at this truck drive

[01:10:55.64 --> 01:10:59.68] will find some other thing like maybe a

[01:10:57.72 --> 01:11:02.28] truck driver is a good mechanic or a

[01:10:59.68 --> 01:11:04.28] good uh or something they might fix the

[01:11:02.28 --> 01:11:06.44] trucks that are automated they might

[01:11:04.28 --> 01:11:10.04] manage the fleet or whatever you know

[01:11:06.44 --> 01:11:13.08] yes eventually things will um fall into

[01:11:10.04 --> 01:11:17.44] place no one is going def need to have

[01:11:13.08 --> 01:11:19.92] another podcast episode job markets gr

[01:11:17.44 --> 01:11:21.52] yeah cuz this is just happening to Tech

[01:11:19.92 --> 01:11:24.48] right now like the no code stuff is

[01:11:21.52 --> 01:11:27.36] getting more and more powerful and and a

[01:11:24.48 --> 01:11:30.84] part of me we have one uh like product

[01:11:27.36 --> 01:11:33.16] in the MVP stage that we worked on as a

[01:11:30.84 --> 01:11:36.32] site project Yi and

[01:11:33.16 --> 01:11:37.56] ibraim cronis and we did it for fun

[01:11:36.32 --> 01:11:40.16] because we wanted to see what was

[01:11:37.56 --> 01:11:42.08] possible and we kind of let it be but

[01:11:40.16 --> 01:11:44.56] the more apps we build the more systems

[01:11:42.08 --> 01:11:46.28] we build the more automation things we

[01:11:44.56 --> 01:11:49.64] set up the more custom fields we

[01:11:46.28 --> 01:11:52.72] introduce the more it always ends up I'm

[01:11:49.64 --> 01:11:54.88] like hm this would have done it to the

[01:11:52.72 --> 01:11:58.00] point where I'm thinking like in the

[01:11:54.88 --> 01:12:00.24] future of our business and hopefully we

[01:11:58.00 --> 01:12:02.52] can we're able to manage this you know

[01:12:00.24 --> 01:12:06.16] if we're taking something from idea to

[01:12:02.52 --> 01:12:09.44] Inception to building it to growth a lot

[01:12:06.16 --> 01:12:11.84] of that piece is automated with um this

[01:12:09.44 --> 01:12:13.16] tool that we're developing instead of

[01:12:11.84 --> 01:12:16.44] developing from

[01:12:13.16 --> 01:12:18.00] scratch uh not to say that developing

[01:12:16.44 --> 01:12:19.36] from scratch is hard these days it's not

[01:12:18.00 --> 01:12:21.04] very hard you have a lot of talented

[01:12:19.36 --> 01:12:23.72] people but there's a lot of back and

[01:12:21.04 --> 01:12:26.68] forth It's prone to error updating

[01:12:23.72 --> 01:12:28.04] you're you know if somebody's using a a

[01:12:26.68 --> 01:12:30.16] less adopted technology you're kind of

[01:12:28.04 --> 01:12:32.44] stuck with them maybe they're sick that

[01:12:30.16 --> 01:12:33.76] day they can only make the change or you

[01:12:32.44 --> 01:12:36.64] have to teach another developer how to

[01:12:33.76 --> 01:12:38.56] do it it's messy whereas like with some

[01:12:36.64 --> 01:12:40.00] of the no code tools and guys I'm not

[01:12:38.56 --> 01:12:41.40] talking about like using clickup for

[01:12:40.00 --> 01:12:43.04] your freaking Factory I'm talking about

[01:12:41.40 --> 01:12:46.16] like an actual nood tool where you can

[01:12:43.04 --> 01:12:48.72] build yeah A system that has

[01:12:46.16 --> 01:12:51.76] authentication and Integrations and

[01:12:48.72 --> 01:12:54.72] expendability later on

[01:12:51.76 --> 01:12:56.24] so definitely Mar a new episode on that

[01:12:54.72 --> 01:12:57.88] whole like job market automation would

[01:12:56.24 --> 01:13:01.28] be very very interesting let's lock it

[01:12:57.88 --> 01:13:02.88] in for next one I like it all right yeah

[01:13:01.28 --> 01:13:05.20] I just want to say one final thing one

[01:13:02.88 --> 01:13:07.28] final thing just about automation

[01:13:05.20 --> 01:13:10.16] eventually we developers have been

[01:13:07.28 --> 01:13:13.56] putting ourselves sorry automating our

[01:13:10.16 --> 01:13:16.60] work yeah we're the beginning of

[01:13:13.56 --> 01:13:19.24] computers so I don't see this as any

[01:13:16.60 --> 01:13:21.72] different than before so the same thing

[01:13:19.24 --> 01:13:24.20] true people used to write um software

[01:13:21.72 --> 01:13:27.12] for a calculator simple calcor now we

[01:13:24.20 --> 01:13:31.96] write uh software for uh spreadsheets

[01:13:27.12 --> 01:13:35.08] and complex uh uh calculations and

[01:13:31.96 --> 01:13:36.48] whatever you know data data analysis

[01:13:35.08 --> 01:13:37.80] blah blah blah so it's the same thing

[01:13:36.48 --> 01:13:40.20] just now we write software to make

[01:13:37.80 --> 01:13:42.08] software yeah exactly and the main

[01:13:40.20 --> 01:13:44.16] reason we do it is that so that when the

[01:13:42.08 --> 01:13:45.60] customer asks us to change the font to

[01:13:44.16 --> 01:13:47.64] helvetica we don't have to do it

[01:13:45.60 --> 01:13:49.88] ourselves I think that's where Bo is

[01:13:47.64 --> 01:13:53.40] done to I'm like ah change it on your

[01:13:49.88 --> 01:13:55.72] own and stay away from it so yep yep

[01:13:53.40 --> 01:13:59.56] just lazy it it all stems out of

[01:13:55.72 --> 01:14:03.44] laziness okay um that's awesome any

[01:13:59.56 --> 01:14:06.40] final words r on products produce is

[01:14:03.44 --> 01:14:09.80] should I'd say to some of this whole

[01:14:06.40 --> 01:14:13.36] episode I would uh get back to my

[01:14:09.80 --> 01:14:15.40] initial idea of consideration all the

[01:14:13.36 --> 01:14:17.92] time consideration of who you are

[01:14:15.40 --> 01:14:21.88] selling your product to how is this

[01:14:17.92 --> 01:14:25.08] customization going to be uh assisting

[01:14:21.88 --> 01:14:27.32] or destroying your product and

[01:14:25.08 --> 01:14:30.00] consideration of your team as well who

[01:14:27.32 --> 01:14:34.32] is going to be doing the customization

[01:14:30.00 --> 01:14:36.96] itself and basically understanding who

[01:14:34.32 --> 01:14:39.56] uh is going to be using it why do they

[01:14:36.96 --> 01:14:42.52] need this additional functionality and

[01:14:39.56 --> 01:14:46.72] how are you going to be applying it from

[01:14:42.52 --> 01:14:50.24] the team perspective and uh as we all

[01:14:46.72 --> 01:14:52.36] agreed on I'd say that uh for all the

[01:14:50.24 --> 01:14:54.80] product managers product owners out

[01:14:52.36 --> 01:15:01.04] there taking to consideration your

[01:14:54.80 --> 01:15:04.00] product Vision always and only try to uh

[01:15:01.04 --> 01:15:05.52] fit in requests if it fits into your

[01:15:04.00 --> 01:15:10.36] product

[01:15:05.52 --> 01:15:13.16] Vision yep that would be it for today

[01:15:10.36 --> 01:15:17.76] yeah said awesome I think we could go on

[01:15:13.16 --> 01:15:20.32] for hours uh but to be continued guys

[01:15:17.76 --> 01:15:22.20] this was great yes thank you and happy

[01:15:20.32 --> 01:15:26.04] New Year see you in

[01:15:22.20 --> 01:15:29.40] 2024 thank you too Happy New Year

[01:15:26.04 --> 01:15:32.96] everyone thank you take care thank you

[01:15:29.40 --> 01:15:32.96] bye bye-bye

[01:15:37.95 --> 01:15:42.40] [Music]

[01:15:39.40 --> 01:15:42.40] byebye

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